Spurs Clippers trade

[Interpaga]

Spurs trade:
- Spurs first round pick 2024
- Nets second round pick 2023
- Austin Reaves $0.5m 2023 (G-league)
- Blake Griffin $1.2m 2024

Clippers trade:
- Derozan $22m 2025 ($19m paid 2022, $11m paid 2023)

Spurs are looking to improve the team. We use a package of picks/players to add a very good player to our team

[indiansnation]

Clippers have decided to go ahead and start doing a rebuild and this trade i add picks that will help me with this down the road

[DynastyDeacon]

  A precedent was set in the veto of the trade below. Los Angeles is trading a star player currently ranked #36 overall who is more than two-thirds paid for what will probably be one of the last picks in the first round of 2024 and a middle of the 2nd round pick in 2023. The two players in this trade are throw-ins.

76ers trade (the blessed bounty of):
1st rd pick 2020
2nd rd pick 2020
2nd rd pick 2021
2nd rd pick 2022
F Furkan Korkmaz $1.8m

Warriors trade:
PG Stephen Curry $30m (2022) *paid 2021

Curry is greater than DeRozan, but the trades are on par as far as being vetoable when you consider the following, which are all more lopsided in the DeRozan trade when compared to the Curry trade.
1) Both trades have $30m paid, but DeRozan will only cost the team getting him $14m more over the two years vs. $30m for Curry.
2) The draft picks being traded for Curry are twice as good as the draft picks being traded for DeRozan as there are twice as many picks and the 1st round pick offered for Curry is more valuable than the 1st round pick being traded for DeRozan.
3) Furkan Korkmaz is better than Griffin & Reaves. Korkmaz was #158 overall last year and is currently #162 overall this year, while Griffin & Reaves are not even rotation players. So if everyone was drafting to win this year, Korkmaz would be a 6th round value, which would make him a starter in the active lineup.

I think if we vetoed the Curry trade above we have to also veto this trade as it is on par or worse than the Curry trade.

[Interpaga]

We will accept any decision but just a quick note from our side.

Derozan is playing very well this year but last 2 years was ranked 67 and 85 in Fantrax. Moreover he is 32 years old and has an expensive 4 years contract.

Curry is a top 5 player and, at the time of the trade, had just 2 years of contract. So it not easy to compare the two trades.

We agree that the package of picks/players is probably not superappealing at the moment but Blake still maintains some upside from the current low level as shown last year during playoffs and his contract is almost for free, Reaves is a young rotational player and the trade removes most of an expensive contract for a rebuilding team.

We also have the example of Anthony Davis trade:

Lakers trade -

- Anthony Davis *contract extended ($30m/year)

Pelicans trade -
- #57 2021 draft
- 2022 1st rounder
- 2023 2nd rounder

In that case, the package was very similar to the one offered for Derozan but the trade was approved, correctly in our opinion, because the seller could not/did not want to resign Davis.

Anyway we will accept any decision

[DynastyDeacon]

I think it is also important to note that San Antonio Spurs traded DeRozan to Los Angeles about a year ago on December 7th.

http://www.profsl.com/smf/index.php?topic=374717.0

Spurs trade -

Derozan $27m (2021)
Rozier $18.4m (2022, Hornets pay 12.5m and Spurs pay 1.5m just of 2021 salary)

Clippers trade -

Paul George $30m (2022, Clippers pay 8m just of 2022 salary)
2023 first round pick

Then on March 12, 2021 got Rozier back too in this trade.

http://www.profsl.com/smf/index.php?topic=380282.0

Spurs trade:
- Lonnie Walker $3.7m 2022
- Lyles $0.5m 2022, recently acquired in free agency but still pending
- Nowell $1.1m 2023
- Spurs second round pick 2022

Clippers trade:
- Rozier $18.4m 2022 ($14m paid 2021 from previous trades of which $1.5m Spurs and $12.5m Hornets, Clippers agree to pay $9.2m in 2022)

Combining the three trades gets you:

Los Angeles Clippers trades:
Paul George $30m (2022, Clippers pay 8m just of 2022 salary)
Los Angeles Clippers 2023 1st Round Pick
Derozan $22m 2025 ($19m paid 2022, $11m paid 2023)
Rozier $18.4m 2022 ($14m paid 2021 from previous trades of which $1.5m Spurs and $12.5m Hornets, Clippers agree to pay $9.2m in 2022)

San Antonio Spurs trades:
Derozan $27m (2021)
Rozier $18.4m (2022, Hornets pay 12.5m and Spurs pay 1.5m just of 2021 salary)
Spurs first round pick 2024
Nets second round pick 2023
Austin Reaves $0.5m 2023 (G-league)
Blake Griffin $1.2m 2024
Lonnie Walker $3.7m 2022
Lyles $0.5m 2022, recently acquired in free agency but still pending
Nowell $1.1m 2023
Spurs second round pick 2022


Once you take away Rozier and DeRozan as they both went back to San Antonio Spurs you are left with:

Los Angeles Clippers trades:
Paul George
Los Angeles 1st Round Draft Pick in 2023
$47.2m paid in 2022 & 2023 across George, DeRozan, Rozier (The equivalent of paying all of Paul George's $30m due in 2022 plus $17.2m)

San Antonio Spurs trades:
Spurs first round pick 2024
Nets second round pick 2023
Austin Reaves $0.5m 2023 (G-league)
Blake Griffin $1.2m 2024
Lonnie Walker $3.7m 2022
Lyles $0.5m 2022, recently acquired in free agency but still pending
Nowell $1.1m 2023
Spurs second round pick 2022

That's the best player in Paul George for free, plus $17.2m additional paid, plus a sure lottery pick in the 1st round of the 2023 draft for Lonnie Walker, probably the last pick in the 2024 draft, and two 2nd round picks, and a bunch of worthless players. All within one year of trading from December 7, 2020 until now back and forth with the same primary players.

There is also this suspicious trade:

http://www.profsl.com/smf/index.php?topic=395158.0

Spurs trade:
- Frank Ntilikina $0.5m 2023
- Isaiah Roby $1.8m 2023 (fully paid 2022, $0.9m paid 2023)

Clippers trade:
- Tony Bradley $2.3 2023 (fully paid)

Spurs need a backup C with some playing time

to which Indiansnation responded "I trade for a player I like in Bradley and this trade does it"

It's not my call, but I think the two should probably be banned from trading with each other. Rozier was later traded from San Antonio to Brooklyn (whom indiansnation also manages) for Lonzo Ball. There are several other trades between the two teams that mostly favor the San Antonio Spurs. These trades are a large reason that San Antonio sits at the top of the standings at 27-1. The two of them trading repeatedly back and forth for the same players with indiansnation consistently paying on them is highly suspicious along with the comment made above, which was corrected, but initially confused who was trading away and for whom, which was quoted before it was corrected. I also saw the above quote before it was changed. I believe a ban of trading between the two could help league parity, which their trading has severely damaged.

Lonzo Ball also had $11m paid each year across two years when traded to the Spurs from Brooklyn (indiansnation). Brooklyn also traded Lebron James to Spurs ($16m paid) thus resulting in indiansnation paying a total of $85.2m on trades to San Antonio across two teams for 2022 & 2023. There could be even more paid, but I didn't dive too deeply into all their trades.

[Interpaga]

We are totally astonished by the allegations of "conspiracy" and all the other serious allegations against us.
 
We play this league with passion and we always tried to improve our roster. Is it something to be culpable of? Not really.
We like being active on the trade market and, as everyone knows, we engaged several discussions with all member of the league. If some trades went down with indiansnation, this was just because he is often available to trade negotiations; of course, in the process many ideas were exchanged and offers declined.
Again, all trades between us were approved without any sort of veto, so frankly accusing us of unfair trading or even conspiracy is totally ungrounded. DynastyDeacon, why did not veto the previous trades if you thought they were biased? We will be happy to run through each of them.

We also strongly reject the concept that we are 27-1 because we traded with indiansnation. We were 69-3 last year and probably just 2 totally fair trades were finalized last year between Spurs and Clippers. Spurs is a good team because we spend a lot of time, probably too much, on this game, we trade a lot with strong attention to other teams needs and we made some good and cheap acquisitions in free agency. Insinuating that we are good because we finalized various, often minor, trades with Clippers/Nets is probably the most annoying thing for us. Also because the other allegation (conspirancy) should not even deserve a reply.

Regarding one of the minor trades mentioned (Roby/Ntikilina for Bradley), we let indiansnation explain why he made that confusing comment, we simply proposed to indiansnation a fair trade that at that time seemed good for our team, but then proved to be in favour of Clippers (a clear demonstration that there are several instances of trades not in favour of Spurs).

If the members of the league think we deserve a ban from trading with another team, we would prefer that you directly ban us from the league. So you can dismantle Spurs and restore a league which was "severely damaged" by us. We enjoy a lot this league but frankly, after the recent allegations from a key member of the league for which we had a lot of respect, at the moment we are not sure if we are still in the mood of continuing playing this league. Putting doubts on our fairness and our team, after all our efforts in building it, is simply too much for us

[Interpaga]

Just an additional consideration. All the allegations are based on a confusing comment of indiansnation where he seemed to be on the other side of the trade.
We want to clarify that we (interpaga) are two guys from Italy co-managing Spurs, big NBA fans, we do not know indiansnation, we have no other relationship with him apart from playing the same NBA fantasy league. Please note that we were the first to ask indiansnation, through a private message, a clarification about that confusing post. We are open to share all the relevant messages we sent if needed.
We hope that also indiansnation could clarify his position

[DynastyDeacon]

We are totally astonished by the allegations of "conspiracy" and all the other serious allegations against us.
 
We play this league with passion and we always tried to improve our roster. Is it something to be culpable of? Not really.
We like being active on the trade market and, as everyone knows, we engaged several discussions with all member of the league. If some trades went down with indiansnation, this was just because he is often available to trade negotiations; of course, in the process many ideas were exchanged and offers declined.
Again, all trades between us were approved without any sort of veto, so frankly accusing us of unfair trading or even conspiracy is totally ungrounded. DynastyDeacon, why did not veto the previous trades if you thought they were biased? We will be happy to run through each of them.

We also strongly reject the concept that we are 27-1 because we traded with indiansnation. We were 69-3 last year and probably just 2 totally fair trades were finalized last year between Spurs and Clippers. Spurs is a good team because we spend a lot of time, probably too much, on this game, we trade a lot with strong attention to other teams needs and we made some good and cheap acquisitions in free agency. Insinuating that we are good because we finalized various, often minor, trades with Clippers/Nets is probably the most annoying thing for us. Also because the other allegation (conspirancy) should not even deserve a reply.

Regarding one of the minor trades mentioned (Roby/Ntikilina for Bradley), we let indiansnation explain why he made that confusing comment, we simply proposed to indiansnation a fair trade that at that time seemed good for our team, but then proved to be in favour of Clippers (a clear demonstration that there are several instances of trades not in favour of Spurs).

If the members of the league think we deserve a ban from trading with another team, we would prefer that you directly ban us from the league. So you can dismantle Spurs and restore a league which was "severely damaged" by us. We enjoy a lot this league but frankly, after the recent allegations from a key member of the league for which we had a lot of respect, at the moment we are not sure if we are still in the mood of continuing playing this league. Putting doubts on our fairness and our team, after all our efforts in building it, is simply too much for us

My quote was " I am not one for conspiracies, but at the very least a ban of trading between the two could help league parity, which their trading has severely damaged." I have revised that sentence. I don't believe it is a conspiracy and I apologize for giving the impression that I thought that. I do believe that several trades between two teams involving many of the same players that are consistently favoring one team over the other should be stopped and the trades vetoed. Reviewed individually they are lopsided trades, but not veto worthy. Once you look at the big picture of how they all fit together and the overall result of the many trades, plus the high frequency, and the same players going back and forth, it does at the very least raise a great deal of concern.

Currently your trades have netted you the best player in Paul George, the best draft pick in an LA Clippers 1st round pick, and an enormous $47.2m savings in salary cap across 2 years in exchange for Lonnie Walker, a late 1st round draft pick, and two 2nd round draft picks.

1. $47.2m in savings over two years is worth Lonnie Walker, your 1st round pick, and 2 2nd round picks as that can get you an OG Anunoby ($21m per year signed in 2021 free agency) or better in free agency.
2. Paul George is worth Lonnie Walker, your 1st round pick, and 2 2nd round picks.
3. The Los Angeles Clippers 1st round pick is worth Lonnie Walker, your 1st round pick, and 2 2nd round picks as it will most likely be a top #5 pick.

You didn't just get one of those things, but you got all 3, which is an enormous advantage. Again, none of the trades up until this one were vetoable on their own, but I believe this one is. There is also the ongoing issue of two teams trading back and forth until one team has nothing left and the other builds a super team.


I know you don't want Huerter as he will need to be extended at a high price, but I have no doubt that you will in time, if allowed to continue, soon trade DeRozan and some 2nd round draft picks to Brooklyn for a mostly paid Kevin Durant and continue to improve your team at the cost of league parity by trading with Brooklyn (indiansnation's 2nd team) as there is nothing left of value on Los Angeles Clippers. This isn't all on you, rather, I believe you are consistently exploiting another manager that doesn't have the same skill level that you do to the detriment of his team and to the league.

League parity has always been important to me and I have played in other leagues that have died because teams were allowed to continue with trades like this. People don't typically want to play in a league where they are playing for 2nd best or 3rd best because of a super-team. I know because I was the commissioner in a league in the past and created my own super team through trades. It became unenjoyable for me and unenjoyable for the rest of the league and everyone called it quits.

Also, a veto vote for this deal only hurts me as I have Los Angeles Clippers 1st round pick and 2nd round pick in 2024, which I obtained in a deal centered around Kevin Huerter. I will gladly also accept a ban in trading with indiansnation if it proves that I am vetoing in the interest of the league and not for my own self interest. I really enjoy and care about this league, like you do. Unfortunately, I believe you care about winning more than you care about the league, which is why you carry healthy guys on the IL and consistently make these lopsided trades with the same person.

[ajm5551]

Why cant the deal just be vetoed and they can be given the option to re-work the deal? Leaving it as simple as that.

I think the public talk of a trade ban is unwarranted and just causes more harm that good in this case.

[DynastyDeacon]

I don't have the power to implement a trade ban, but wanted to bring that up as I think that's the only way to prevent veto worthy trades in this scenario. Since they trade back and forth so often they end up in the same place with a veto worthy trade, but broken into several lopsided trades. The culmination of the three trades involving George, DeRozan, Rozier is definitely veto worthy and this deal is veto worthy. The reason I mentioned a trade ban is regarding the question of whether Spurs should be allowed to make veto worthy trades because they are broken down into smaller lopsided, but not veto worthy trades. I hope that makes sense. If they rework the deal all it takes is another deal in a month and we have allowed a veto worthy trade because it was done in 2 or 3 parts. Thus my thinking of a trade ban as the only way to prevent a veto worthy trade between Spurs and indiansnation. That's not my call, but I thought it needs to be mentioned.

I don't mean to cause a scene, but it's important to take the many transactions into consideration as well as this current trade due to the frequency of back and forth trading of the same players and the payments on those players when they go back to the Spurs. I have honestly never seen this scenario in all my years of playing fantasy sports where the same players were traded back and forth so many times between the same manager (3 trades in a year including Rozier, 2 involving DeRozan).

I am fine with whatever Billy, and the league decides. I have my opinion of what should be done based on what I believe is best for the league, but others are certainly allowed to and encouraged to disagree with me. I will accept whatever is decided without threat of leaving the league.