Scoring Categories

[mjmezzetti]

I think it's something that we should add to the rules and circulate to the league if the points system is adopted.  We could impose forfeiture of the illegal pitchers points (this is how we handle this in another league I'm in).  Given we'll likely playing weekly, head to head, it'll be up to an opponent to raise the issue if someone accidentally places a starter at RP.

[Colby]

I think it's something that we should add to the rules and circulate to the league if the points system is adopted.  We could impose forfeiture of the illegal pitchers points (this is how we handle this in another league I'm in).  Given we'll likely playing weekly, head to head, it'll be up to an opponent to raise the issue if someone accidentally places a starter at RP.

If this was something we did, and an opponent didn't realize their bullpen hand became a starter then they shouldn't lose out on all of the points, just the points that the now-starter got in the RP spot.  This works much easier with a points based H2H than category based-H2H/roto.

[Colby]

Updated scoring attached! 

[Canada8999]

Updated scoring attached! 

:iatp:

[clidwin]

 :iatp:

NICE!

[mjmezzetti]

:iatp:

NICE!

I just had an opportunity to look at this, thanks for picking it up.  Is there any way to tweak the fielding points per position?  The only two issues that remain at this point is the overvaluation of defense for first basemen and the ability to place an sp at rp.  I think we need some sort of restriction/penalty there, hopefully we can come up with something that's fair.

[Colby]

I just had an opportunity to look at this, thanks for picking it up.  Is there any way to tweak the fielding points per position?  The only two issues that remain at this point is the overvaluation of defense for first basemen and the ability to place an sp at rp.  I think we need some sort of restriction/penalty there, hopefully we can come up with something that's fair.

Overvaluation of defense for 1B
There is nothing we can do about limiting a team from fielding multiple 1B.  However, we can reduce the defensive points per position (such as CI and Util).

SP/RP limitation
Fantrax may look into it, but all we have available to us is a straight up min/max for the week.  The min/max may apply to At-Bats, Innings Pitched, and Games Started.  I suggest min/max for AB and IP and a max for GS.

[mjmezzetti]

Overvaluation of defense for 1B
There is nothing we can do about limiting a team from fielding multiple 1B.  However, we can reduce the defensive points per position (such as CI and Util).

SP/RP limitation
Fantrax may look into it, but all we have available to us is a straight up min/max for the week.  The min/max may apply to At-Bats, Innings Pitched, and Games Started.  I suggest min/max for AB and IP and a max for GS.

I think a limit, either innings or games started is a good idea.  I don't think a utility player should accrue defense points, as it's essentially a dh.  Defense is tough regardless, I just can't think of a way to statistically represent this part of the game that has any meaning.  You could inflate outfield and shrink ci but now you have a larger issue if a first baseman is outfield eligible.  I don't think I can support including defense because it severely skews players' values and it's no way related to performance.  I apologize if this is an unpopular view, I'm just trying to maintain the integrity of the game and would like to see us adopt a system that most closely translates performance.

[Colby]

I think a limit, either innings or games started is a good idea.  I don't think a utility player should accrue defense points, as it's essentially a dh.  Defense is tough regardless, I just can't think of a way to statistically represent this part of the game that has any meaning.  You could inflate outfield and shrink ci but now you have a larger issue if a first baseman is outfield eligible.  I don't think I can support including defense because it severely skews players' values and it's no way related to performance.  I apologize if this is an unpopular view, I'm just trying to maintain the integrity of the game and would like to see us adopt a system that most closely translates performance.

MJ,

If you are happy with everything else, then we can work to tweak defense.  I agree with you that we don't want anything skewed that much.  However, defense should be included.  What countable stat categories do we have to work with?

Assists
In descending order... SS, 2B, 3B, C, 1B, OF
Luckily, SS and 2B tend to get almost as many assists as each other, so it applies evenly for MI.  3B usually get twice as many assists as 1B.  OF barely get any - a few dozen a year at the very most.

Errors
In descending order... SS, 2B, 3B, C, OF, 1B
It's a negative counting stat that not many of us are fond of, but it's worth nothing for creating our own defensive metrics that generally follows the same order as Assists.  Shortstops get the most because they have blazing speed balls coming at them.  Outfielders have plenty of time to field, and 1B simply have to catch from another fielder for the most part.

Passed Balls
This only applies to catchers, but it's essentially an error catching the pitch itself.

Putouts
In descending order... 1B, C, OF, 2B, SS, 3B
Once again, SS and 2B are about the same.  OF is weighted a bit more toward CF, but it's not something too egregious.  The problem with putouts is the disparity between 1B and 3B.

I would like to gather some data on these stats for all players, so that we can figure out defense independently and add it in with the rest of the stats.  I agree with MJ's point that defense should not count for the Utility position.  We will need to come up with five formulas here where the results are such that MI are weighed the most for defense, with OF and CI following and C last.

[Colby]

I did a little work to get some defensive countable stats that add up correctly and fit in with the rest of our scheme.  This should do the trick.  In the attached spreadsheet, you will see how the defensive points in 2009 for the players from the Yankees, Cardinals, and Phillies add up.  I chose these three teams because they total up to five gold glove winners (six if you include pitchers).  Also, everyone can agree that Pujols should be a GG winner.  Interesting enough, there are players like Feliz who the Phillies have on their team just for defense (his bat is horrid), so it's nice to see how he fits in the mix.  I noted in one column how many GG each player won in their career as well.

I only use three stats: PO, A, and E... I know most people are not fan of errors, but they are actually thrown in there as a statistical control variable per the positions.   Here are the top results for those of you that are interested...

2B Chase Utley: 830
1B Albert Pujols: 802
2B Robinson Cano: 768
C Yadier Molina: 745
3B Pedro Feliz: 744
CF Shane Victorino: 674
SS Jimmy Rollins: 659
RF Jayson Werth: 574
C Carlos Ruiz: 570
SS Derek Jeter: 570
2B Skip Schumaker: 532
C Jorge Posada: 497
3B Alex Rodriguez: 485
SS Brendan Ryan: 481
1B Ryan Howard: 465
CF Melky Cabrera: 460
1B Mark Teixeira: 454

I suppose we could set it back on how much the MI are getting, but their defensive prowess cannot be understated.  We should increase the number of GP, GS, DIP (defensive innings played) that players need for position eligibility to limit the abuse of switching positions on players.