+/- Obsolete Stat?

[SlackJack]

Has there been a conversation about doing away with the +/- stat? It is a poor metric for today's game! 

[Rob]

 We haven't discussed it. I disagree that it's obsolete though.

[GypsieDeathBringer]

I think with the onslaught of advanced metrics +/- and pitcher wins have really gotten crapped on.  If you are on the ice for a goal against that is a bad thing and most likely had a hand in giving up the goal, not always, but certainly most of the time.  The opposite is true as well.  If you are a high possession player that has a garbage +/- that might mean your unlucky, but it more probably means your team and you suck at defending. 

Having said that if we could swap +/- for a game score rating that would be rad.

[Rob]

If we're going to discuss this, here's a little data.  I also setup a dummy league removing this stat so if there's any player you want to compare let me know.  Or I can invite you to the dummy league.  Corey - I don't see GSR in the Fantrax scoring options.  Snuggy - is there something equivalent that I'm missing?

Top 100 players (current settings)
Player   FPts   FP/G
Ovechkin, Alex   171.3   5.19
Kucherov, Nikita   169.4   5.46
Schenn, Brayden   163.3   4.95
Tarasenko, Vladimir   152.1   4.61
Stamkos, Steven   148.5   4.79
Kopitar, Anze   144.5   4.52
Schwartz, Jaden   142.2   4.74
Tavares, John   137.75   4.3
Kessel, Phil   133.6   4.05
Brown, Dustin   133.55   4.17
Gaudreau, Johnny   132.45   4.14
Couturier, Sean   132.4   4.27
McDavid, Connor   132   4.12
Lee, Anders   130.1   4.07
Scheifele, Mark   129.4   4.04
Forsberg, Filip   127.25   4.1
Benn, Jamie   125.45   3.92
Wheeler, Blake   124.55   3.89
Voracek, Jakub   123.7   3.99
Trocheck, Vincent   123.35   3.85
Kane, Evander   122.85   3.84
Monahan, Sean   122.35   3.82
Point, Brayden   121.15   3.91
MacKinnon, Nathan   120.5   3.89
Seguin, Tyler   120.1   3.75
Giroux, Claude   119.2   3.85
Toffoli, Tyler   115.25   3.6
Crosby, Sidney   114.3   3.46
Kane, Patrick   114.1   3.57
Namestnikov, Vladislav   114.1   3.68
Hall, Taylor   113.55   3.78
Stone, Mark   113.55   3.78
Staal, Eric   113.5   3.66
Kuznetsov, Evgeny   112.65   3.41
Matthews, Auston   112.05   4.31
Pastrnak, David   111.25   3.84
Boeser, Brock   110.75   3.82
Bailey, Josh   109.6   3.42
Zucker, Jason   109.6   3.54
Barkov, Aleksander   108.5   3.5
Kadri, Nazem   108.35   3.28
Anderson, Josh   108.2   3.61
Karlsson, William   107.8   3.48
Marchessault, Jonathan   106.95   3.82
Laine, Patrik   106.55   3.33
Huberdeau, Jonathan   106.4   3.33
Couture, Logan   105.9   3.53
Neal, James   105.6   3.41
Doughty, Drew   105.2   3.29
Ehlers, Nikolaj   102.3   3.2
Grabner, Michael   99.9   3.22
Arvidsson, Viktor   99.85   3.22
Pietrangelo, Alex   99.75   3.33
Panarin, Artemi   99.3   3.1
Marchand, Brad   97.7   4.65
Hornqvist, Patric   96.3   3.21
Lucic, Milan   96.1   3
Malkin, Evgeni   95.35   3.29
Barzal, Mathew   94.75   2.96
van Riemsdyk, James   94.35   2.95
Oshie, T.J.   93.9   3.35
Gallagher, Brendan   93.85   2.93
DeBrincat, Alex   93.5   2.92
Josi, Roman   91.9   3.28
Palat, Ondrej   91.85   2.96
Buchnevich, Pavel   91.65   2.96
Landeskog, Gabriel   91.6   3.39
Toews, Jonathan   91.35   2.85
Smith, Reilly   90.9   2.93
Eberle, Jordan   90.35   2.82
Bergeron, Patrice   90.05   3.75
Smith, Craig   90.05   2.9
Faksa, Radek   90   2.9
Radulov, Alexander   89.9   2.81
Guentzel, Jake   89.35   2.71
Sergachev, Mikhail   89.15   2.88
Werenski, Zach   89.15   2.79
Nugent-Hopkins, Ryan   88.4   2.76
Perron, David   88.35   3.53
Kreider, Chris   87.8   2.83
Gibbons, Brian   87.75   2.83
Skinner, Jeff   87.55   2.92
Pearson, Tanner   87.45   2.73
Muzzin, Jake   86.9   2.72
Pacioretty, Max   86.55   2.7
Zuccarello, Mats   86.55   2.79
Marleau, Patrick   86.45   2.62
Klingberg, John   86.25   2.7
Ferland, Micheal   86.1   2.78
Backstrom, Nicklas   85.85   2.68
Gourde, Yanni   85.85   2.77
Nylander, William   85.1   2.58
Saad, Brandon   85   2.66
Subban, P.K.   84.95   2.74
Horvat, Bo   84.8   3.03
Bjorkstrand, Oliver   84.6   2.64
Haula, Erik   84.55   3.13
Mantha, Anthony   84.55   2.73
Staal, Jordan   84.3   2.81

Top 100 players (removing +/-)
Player   FPts   FP/G
Ovechkin, Alex   165.3   5.01
Kucherov, Nikita   160.4   5.17
Schenn, Brayden   140.3   4.25
Stamkos, Steven   136.5   4.4
Tarasenko, Vladimir   136.1   4.12
Tavares, John   135.75   4.24
Kessel, Phil   134.6   4.08
Kane, Evander   130.85   4.09
Kopitar, Anze   130.5   4.08
Lee, Anders   130.1   4.07
Gaudreau, Johnny   128.45   4.01
Trocheck, Vincent   128.35   4.01
McDavid, Connor   127   3.97
Benn, Jamie   123.45   3.86
MacKinnon, Nathan   122.5   3.95
Scheifele, Mark   121.4   3.79
Seguin, Tyler   121.1   3.78
Wheeler, Blake   120.55   3.77
Crosby, Sidney   120.3   3.65
Forsberg, Filip   120.25   3.88
Couturier, Sean   119.4   3.85
Schwartz, Jaden   119.2   3.97
Brown, Dustin   118.55   3.7
Monahan, Sean   118.35   3.7
Voracek, Jakub   117.7   3.8
Hall, Taylor   117.55   3.92
Kane, Patrick   115.1   3.6
Pastrnak, David   113.25   3.91
Kuznetsov, Evgeny   112.65   3.41
Boeser, Brock   110.75   3.82
Giroux, Claude   110.2   3.55
Laine, Patrik   107.55   3.36
Stone, Mark   107.55   3.58
Bailey, Josh   106.6   3.33
Barkov, Aleksander   106.5   3.44
Huberdeau, Jonathan   106.4   3.33
Point, Brayden   106.15   3.42
Namestnikov, Vladislav   106.1   3.42
Staal, Eric   105.5   3.4
Ehlers, Nikolaj   104.3   3.26
Toffoli, Tyler   104.25   3.26
Neal, James   103.6   3.34
Zucker, Jason   102.6   3.31
Kadri, Nazem   102.35   3.1
Marchessault, Jonathan   101.95   3.64
Couture, Logan   100.9   3.36
Karlsson, William   100.8   3.25
Hornqvist, Patric   99.3   3.31
Anderson, Josh   99.2   3.31
Matthews, Auston   99.05   3.81
van Riemsdyk, James   98.35   3.07
Guentzel, Jake   97.35   2.95
Malkin, Evgeni   97.35   3.36
Gallagher, Brendan   95.85   3
Skinner, Jeff   95.55   3.19
Keller, Clayton   95.35   2.8
Pacioretty, Max   94.55   2.95
Mantha, Anthony   93.55   3.02
Panarin, Artemi   93.3   2.92
Oshie, T.J.   92.9   3.32
Radulov, Alexander   92.9   2.9
Nugent-Hopkins, Ryan   92.4   2.89
Lucic, Milan   92.1   2.88
Eichel, Jack   91.9   2.87
Arvidsson, Viktor   91.85   2.96
Doughty, Drew   91.2   2.85
Buchnevich, Pavel   90.65   2.92
Barzal, Mathew   89.75   2.8
DeBrincat, Alex   89.5   2.8
Hoffman, Mike   89.3   2.98
Smith, Craig   89.05   2.87
Rantanen, Mikko   88.9   2.87
Kreider, Chris   88.8   2.86
Ekman-Larsson, Oliver   88.5   2.6
Eberle, Jordan   88.35   2.76
Ferland, Micheal   88.1   2.84
Leddy, Nick   88.05   2.75
Grabner, Michael   87.9   2.84
Josi, Roman   87.9   3.14
Marchand, Brad   87.7   4.18
Marleau, Patrick   87.45   2.65
Letang, Kris   86.6   2.62
Toews, Jonathan   86.35   2.7
Zibanejad, Mika   86.3   3.6
Simmonds, Wayne   86   2.77
Pietrangelo, Alex   85.75   2.86
Landeskog, Gabriel   85.6   3.17
Maroon, Patrick   85.1   2.66
Smith, Reilly   84.9   2.74
Haula, Erik   84.55   3.13
Staal, Jordan   84.3   2.81
Burns, Brent   84.1   2.8
O'Reilly, Ryan   83.8   2.62
Rakell, Rickard   83.75   3.1
Zuccarello, Mats   83.55   2.7
Larkin, Dylan   83.4   2.69
Perron, David   83.35   3.33
Stastny, Paul   83.2   2.52
Werenski, Zach   83.15   2.6

[Rob]

The most drastic differences are obviously with the best and worst +/- guys.  Those STL forwards with incredible numbers this year take a pretty big FP dip (20-30 points this year).  Meanwhile a guy like OEL who is notoriously bad in +/- would see a decent bump in production. 

Though based on what I'm seeing, I think Slack is right (at least from a fantasy perspective, I still appreciate +/- in real life even though others don't).  However, it's really not a huge factor in our scoring. 

[snugerud]

The most drastic differences are obviously with the best and worst +/- guys.  Those STL forwards with incredible numbers this year take a pretty big FP dip (20-30 points this year).  Meanwhile a guy like OEL who is notoriously bad in +/- would see a decent bump in production. 

Though based on what I'm seeing, I think Slack is right (at least from a fantasy perspective, I still appreciate +/- in real life even though others don't).  However, it's really not a huge factor in our scoring.

I personally see no point in changing it as we are a points based league and as Rob pointed out it does little to change the overall stats.  If you were to replace it my best suggestion is Blocked Shots.  Under the premium scoring features there is a Corsi% however I dont know if we want to start paying $85 a year just to score corsi and not even sure how you would score corsi ... It seems more a head to head category league thing. 

[Rob]

I personally see no point in changing it as we are a points based league and as Rob pointed out it does little to change the overall stats.  If you were to replace it my best suggestion is Blocked Shots.  Under the premium scoring features there is a Corsi% however I dont know if we want to start paying $85 a year just to score corsi and not even sure how you would score corsi ... It seems more a head to head category league thing.

We've discussed Blocked Shots in the past.  I've never been a fan of that stat even though it would help with Defensive scoring.  However, I believe I recall in prior conversations that this change would do too much to disrupt the overall scoring, and the value of certain players.  I never liked the idea.  And if we did it we'd need a long preparation period - like 2 seasons, so that GM's could prepare for that kind of change.

[Rob]

I personally see no point in changing it as we are a points based league and as Rob pointed out it does little to change the overall stats.  If you were to replace it my best suggestion is Blocked Shots.  Under the premium scoring features there is a Corsi% however I dont know if we want to start paying $85 a year just to score corsi and not even sure how you would score corsi ... It seems more a head to head category league thing.

I'm not opposed to paying for the league - never have been.  There's just been no reason to do it so far other than the Minor League stats which we enable in the offseason anyway.  I kinda wish I bought that lifetime membership they offered a couple years ago.

[snugerud]

I'm not opposed to paying for the league - never have been.  There's just been no reason to do it so far other than the Minor League stats which we enable in the offseason anyway.  I kinda wish I bought that lifetime membership they offered a couple years ago.

You and me both... Really wished i had bought it....

[WestCoastExpress]

As a former player, and now fan, +/- is still important and I don't think it should be taken out. It's always been a part of any league I'm in, H2H or points.
In our pts league here, I was surprised to see not a ton difference in the rankings. I know for my team on quick glance, EK's +/- is horrible this year and his fp/g take a hit because of it, same with Kris Letang. For the majority of players though, I don't see it as a big deal. There aren't going to be half your team of + or - 35 players at the end of the season unless you're really lucky/unlucky. An you generally know what a guy's +/- will be. OEL has always been poor, and heading into this year you could have predicted that for COL and ARI players probably at least.