RP Compensation Rules - An Open Forum with RC Participation

[Flash]

During recent years the compensation rules for RPs has been mentioned, but never fully addressed.  In my estimation, our present rules for compensation do not fit.

For the purpose of discussion and review, please consider the following:

Presently, a player who is listed as a SP-RP, is scored differently then a position player, and as a result, his fantasy numbers are essentially inflated.  When our position players are ranked, each has a value for their position of eligibility.  To illustrate this, let’s look at Brock Holt, a player currently on the Twins roster.  Holt has eligibility as a CI-MI-OF.  In our Fantrax rankings, Brock Holt has three different players rankings based upon his points at a given position.  We all know that we have to use the last two years to get the highest ranking, but for our purposes, I am only going to use the 2014 rankings

MI - #28 – 1457.36 points (13.75 ppg) --- $5.0m (Contract Extension)
CI - #43 – 1547.40 points (14.6 ppg) --- $4.5m (Contract Extension)
OF - #35 – 2243.6 points (21.17 ppg) --- $6.5m (Contract Extension)

He is in the last year of his contract and our Rules say: “Contract extensions are based on looking up the player's highest salary per ranking by each eligible position in both the current season and the last season.”

A player who is a SP-RP is not governed by the same ranking differentials.  If you look at the highest ranking RP in our Fantrax data base, you will see it is Carlos Carrasco, a P on the Arizona roster. Here are his 2014 rankings:

RP - #1 – 1462.03 (36.55 ppg) --- $15.0m (Contract Extension)
SP - #72 – 1462.03 (36.55 ppg) --- $4.0m (Contract Extension)

While a position player gets differential rankings based on the points of a given position (like Brock Holt), a SP-RP has no such differential.  The points for a SP are the same as the points for a RP.  This inflates the value of a player who is classified as a SP-RP.  It also creates an untenable situation in terms of Free Agency on a variety of fronts. 

The present owner cannot really extend a RP based on the present extension salary scale because the cost of such an extension is prohibitive.  If you were to review the rosters of each of the teams in FGM, you will find two RPs with a salary of $5.0m (recently signed Kendall Graveman, who is actually slated to be the #5 SP for Oakland, and Aroldis Chapman), there is one RP with a $4.5m salary, one with a salary of $4.0m and one with a salary of $3.5m.  This is for the entire league!  Who, among us, is going to sign a RP extension where only 5 RPs in the entire league have a salary commensurate with the top 25 spots on the Contract Extension Salary Scale?  With that, why in the world would anyone be entitled to a #1 draft pick because of a system which inflates their value to the level of a Type A position player? 

A veteran GM brought this issue up when he posted the following:

“Looking through the players that quality as RPs for ranking purposes and possible pick compensation, there seems to be a very big issue with many players being SPs now that still carry the RP eligibility.  I think this skews the rankings systems and players that should qualify for pick compensation will not qualify because a SP is bumping them down the list.  I understand that some guys are SP's and longer releivers and do both, however there are many (I can list them) that do not have a relief apperance this season and are over 25 starts.  Some haven't ever pitched in relief in the majors and the RP was just carried up with the from the minors.  I think the guys that have not pitched in relief this season or ever in the majors should have RP removed to more accurately depict who is an RP and ensure that the right players are being ranked. “

In another thread, a new GM noted the following:

“I'm in the RP comp being too high boat. It basically makes any Type A/B RP un-signable for a year. I stupidly forgot to look at the Type A/B thread when I picked up Mark Melancon...I wondered why no one bid on him until I lost my 1st rounder.”

As you contemplate the ramifications of those observations, here are the top 4 RPs (who are not SP-RPs) for the past two years.  In parentheses you will see where their fantasy points rank in comparison to a SP.  This comparison is only to illustrate that their value is not even close to the value one gets from a SP and therefore, not worthy of Type A consideration:

2014
Dellin Betances, NYY (LAD) 1195 (17.07) #1 - #103
Wade Davis, KC (BAL) 983.74 (13.86) #2 - #119
Carlos Torres, NYM (TOR) 878.74 (12.04) #3 - #133
Miller, Andrew - NYY (SEA) 852.68 (11.68) #4 - #138

2013
7 RP Rogers, Esmil - NYY FA  964.32 (21.92) #1 - #118 (20 Starts)
8 RP Uehara, Koji - BOS (HOU) 955.72 (13.09) #2 - #120
9 RP Jansen, Kenley - LAD (LAD) 944.45 (12.59)  #3 - #122
10 RP Davis, Wade - KC (BAL) 944.34 (30.46) #4 - #123 (24 Starts)

Recommendation:
Since Ps do not have differential points based upon whether they are SPs or RPs, once a player qualifies as a SP, he should not be considered a RP for Type A draft pick compensation purposes.  Compensation for the loss of a RP should be in the form of one supplemental pick, like a Type B free agent, based upon his fantasy points, for the top 30 RPs.  This would be more in line with their true value to the league.

In terms of scoring, since there is no point differential between a SP and RP, there is no way to regulate use in our daily lineups.  We do have a limit on GS and IP, so their value is subject to the limits of these rules.  However, I recommend an adjustment of the Contract Extension Salary Scale so that extensions could be more manageable for GMs who want to keep their RPs.

There are probably a lot of other things to consider I haven’t thought of, but I think our Compensation Rules for RPs is out of whack.  Please consider what I have written and offer your thoughts on the situation.  I am asking for feedback from the Rules Committee on this issue, however, in this particular instance, since I have quoted two GMs who are members of FGM, others are welcome to participate in this public forum. However, I really do not want this to turn into a full-fledged debate.  After a week or so, I will try and summarize the thoughts presented and bring the issue before the Rules Committee for a formal vote.  I believe this is an issue that needs our attention and I look forward to your feedback.

[rcankosy]

I agree that RP salaries are out of whack.

My proposal is to eliminate the RP distinction for extension purposes and to have one category for all pitcher extensions.

[papps]

I agree that RP type A/B compensation needs to be adjusted.  I'm not sure one category for pitchers would work as the values may not line up correctly.  I'm sure there is no perfect solution but I think the first thing we can fix is the compensation before looking at extension values.

[VolsRaysBucs]

I am in favor of the compensation being tweaked, but any changes need to take effect at the conclusion of 2015.  Several teams have accumulated expiring RP contracts (which has been a tried and true strategy in the past) playing under the current rule system. 

[BHows]

The problem with lumping all P into one catagory is that  you would end up with  no compensation for any RP. Based on this year's FA class, the top 40% (72) in "Pitchers" are all SP with the exception of one (#72 Carlos Carrasco). That would tip the scales too far the other way.
The way I see it we have a few possible solutions:
1.) Fantrax filters are currently set so tht SP needs 4 starts from either this year OR last year. RP need 12 relief appearances this year OR last. This could be tweaked to fit our purposes.
2.) Reduce the percentage down from 20% the number of RP who qualify as Type A FA
3.) Eliminate RP from Type A status completely.
One warning- FGM is already a "hitter friendly" league. We have to consider the effects on pitching  so as not to under value it even further.

[jpmanchester]

Here's a few things I would suggest to bring RP values in line. Just for reference, the top two SP last year scored 2642 and 2619, and the top two RP-only scored 1200 and 980. The top 2 swingmen were 1462 and 1163 pts.

In light of that, I'd recommend the following changes:
1. Only the top 20% of RP get compensation picks.
2. All RP comp picks are Type B.
3. Adjust the salary scale for RP to start at 25% of the SP1 scale. So the top RP would start at $6m and decrease to $1M fairly quickly. 6m-5m-5m-4.5m-4.5m-4m-4m-etc.


A couple notes:
1. I don't think lumping all pitchers in one category is feasible since at most 1-2 RP probably would even rank in SP scale.

2. I don't think it makes sense to only rank a swigman SP/RP as only one or the other since you'd get a top 5 RP swingman at something like $1m on the SP scale but they'd be a top RP in an RP roster spot.

3. I don't think we should adjust thresholds for SP/RP status. Fixing comp and salary should get it in line. We can't avoid the SP/RP swingmen types, but I think the above proposals would put their salaries close enough that you wouldn't need to adjust the thresholds for RP/SP. If re-signing a top RP swingman, their RP value would be about $3-4m more than their SP value.

3a. Example: top two swingmen this year were 1462 and 1163, #1 and #3 RP's. So Carrasco at #1RP and #72SP, would be valued at $6m on RP scale and $4m on SP scale. Petit would #3RP #106SP, so something like $1m SP and $5m RP.

4. There's really only a few RP and swingmen at the top that are difference makers, so only giving comp for the top 20% (top 36 RP) makes sense IMO.


Numbers might need to be tweaked a little bit for the salary scale, but I think those proposals would make re-signing RP eligible pitchers feasible in some of the top cases. And not give an out of whack comp if you let them go.

[papps]

I agree with jpmanchester.  Those are really good ideas. 

[BHows]

The attached link is the projected 1st Rd and Compensation Table for this year's FA class. With this table the two remaining FA (Ianetta and Aybar) are assumed to be signed by teams with non-protected picks. Doing so serves the purpose of the debate as these are the highest possible compensations for relievers.
Alfredo Simon and Josh Collmenter (SP/RP) scored the most point and their compensation value is Overall picks #39, #40 and #41, #42. Since they can be used solely as SP this year an argument can be made that this is just compensation. Compensation for the remaining 3 Type A FA RP is picks #43 thru #48. Picks #49 thru #60 are for Type B relievers.
In short, I'm not so sure that the rules governing compensation for relievers is that far off.



https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_OU8aymhMwhcTdTVFJib196VXc/view?usp=sharing

Edit: I just realized that Aybar is a Type B so he can't be compensated with a draft pick. Therefore, all players must be bumped down one.

[rcankosy]

I agree that lumping one list of P was too drastic, so here's a simple alternative.

Form a list of the best RP and find out what proportion of points they earn relative to SP.  Let's say it turns out to be 25%.  Take the extension values of SP and divide them by 4.

[Flash]

There has been some good ideas discussed here so far, and please bear with me as I add this to the dialogue. 

From my PMs and e-mails with some of the original GMs who put together FGM, the salary scales we currently use are based on contracts from 2010.  I have randomly cross-checked a variety of salaries throughout all the positions with the salaries listed on Cot's Baseball Contracts, and for the most part, it seems that all the salaries are based on the contracts players received in 2010.  There are some contracts that don't go with this explanation, (i.e., C-7 $5m (Posey, Buster), and I have no way of knowing if there was some minor adjustments to the salary scales over the years, but for the most part, the salaries we use for rankings seem to coincide with the salaries from 2010.

When compared to the salaries of 2010, we all know that the salaries of 2015 have increased because increased MLB spending in the free agent market.  With that in mind, I utilized the contract information provided by Sportrac, a site dedicated to MLB salaries.   Here is a link to that site if you’re interested:  http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/rankings/base/relief-pitcher/

That said, the suggestion has been made to "Adjust the salary scale for RP to start at 25% of the SP1 scale."   In reference to that premise, I updated our current 78 tiered RP salary scale with the information listed on Sportrac.  In addition, I updated the top 20 SP salaries for comparison purposes.

Here are the top 20 salaries of SPs for 2010 vs 2015:

2010 Salary Rankings                      2015 Salary Rankings

SP-1 $23m (Sabathia, CC)---------------SP-1 $30.0m (Kershaw, Clayton)
SP-2 $23m (Santana, Johan)------------SP-2 $28.0m (Verlander, Justin)
SP-3 $18.5m (Zambrano, Carlos)--------SP-3 $25.0m (Lee, Cliff)
SP-4 $18m (Hernandez, Felix)-----------SP-4 $24.0m (Hernandez, Felix)
SP-5 $18m (Verlander, Justin)-----------SP-5 $23.0m (Greinke, Zach)
SP-6 $18m (Zito, Barry)   ----------------SP-6 $23.0m (Sabathia, CC)
SP-7 $16.5m (Burnett, A.J.)--------------SP-7 $22.5m (Hamels, Cole)
SP-8 $15.5m (Myers, Brett)--------------SP-8 $22.0m (Tanaka, Masahiro)
SP-9 $15m (Lowe, Derek)---------------SP-9 $20.0m (Cain, Matt)
SP-10 $14.5m (Oswalt, Roy)------------SP-10 $20.0m (Price, David)
SP-11 $14.5m (Rodriguez, Wandy)-----SP-11 $19.5m (Wainwright, Adam)
SP-12 $14m (Buehrle, Mark)------------SP-12 $19.0m (Buehrle, Mark)
SP-13 $14m (Nolasco, Ricky)-----------SP-13 $18.0m (Weaver, Jered)
SP-14 $14m (Peavy, Jake)---------------SP-14 $18.0m (Wilson, C.J.)
SP-15 $13.5m (Halladay, Roy)----------SP-15 $18.0m (Lincecum, Tim)
SP-16 $13.5m (Johnson, Josh)----------SP-16 $16.5m (Zimmerman, Jordan)
SP-17 $13m (Dempster, Ryan)----------SP-17 $16.0m (Sanchez, Anibal)
SP-18 $13m (Jackson, Edwin)-----------SP-18 $15.0m (Lester, Jon)
SP-19 $12.5m (Carpenter, Chris)--------SP-19 $14.0m (Danks, John)
SP-20 $12m (Millwood, Kevin)----------SP-20 $14.0m (Gallardo, Yovani)

From these salaries you can see that the salaries of the top SPs has increased dramatically.  If you compare the salaries for RPs in the same way, you can see that the suggested 25% is basically reflected in the salaries received by the top 78 RPs.  The top end or the RP salary scale is actually lower and the bottom end is a little higher.  Here is an updated salary schedule for RPs—with a comparison of the 2010 scale to the current 2015 scale.

                                             Relief Pitchers Salary Scales

2010 Salary Scale                                                2015 Salary Scale

RP-1 $15m (Rivera, Mariano)--------------------RP-1 $9.0m (Broxton, Jonathan)
RP-2 $13.5m (Lidge, Brad)………………………………..RP-2 $9.0m (Miller, Andrew)
RP-3 $12.5m (Broxton, Jonathan)……………………..RP-3 $8.5m (Clippard, Tyler)
RP-4 $12.5m (Rodriguez, Francisco)…………………RP-4 $7.5m (League, Brandon)
RP-5 $12m (Nathan, Joe)………………………………….RP-5 $7.0m (Davis, Wade)
RP-6 $11.5m (Cordero, Francisco)…………………….RP-6 $7.0m (Soria, Joakim)
RP-7 $10.5m (Bell, Heath)…………………………………RP-7 $7.0m (Belfour, Grant)
RP-8 $10.5m (Wood, Kerry)……………………………...RP-8 $6.5m (Marshall, Sean)
RP-9 $9m (Fuentes, Brian)...........................................RP-9 $6.0m (Gregerson, Luke)
RP-10 $7m (Ryan, B.J.)...................................................RP-10 $5.5m (Storen, Drew)
RP-11 $5m (Francisco, Frank).....................................RP-11 $5.5m (Neskek, Pat)
RP-12 $5m (Runzler, Dan)...........................................RP-12 $5.5m (O’Flathery, Eric)
RP-13 $5m (Shields, Scot)...........................................RP-13 $5.5m (Logan, Boone)
RP-14 $4.5m (Linebrink, Scott)..................................RP-14 $5.0m (Smith, Joe)
RP-15 $4m (Affeldt, Jeremy).......................................RP-15 $4.5m (Affeldt, Jeremy)
RP-16 $4m (Farnsworth, Kyle)....................................RP-16 $4.5m (Ziegler, Brad)
RP-17 $4m (Jenks, Bobby)...........................................RP-17 $4.5m (Romo, Sergio)
RP-18 $4m (Madson, Ryan)........................................RP-18 $4.5m (Mujica, Edward)
RP-19 $4m (Marte, Damaso) .....................................RP-19 $4.5m (Hunter, Tommy)
RP-20 $4m (Romero, J.C.) ...........................................RP-20 $4.5m (Duke, Zach)
RP-21 $4m (Speier, Justin) .........................................RP-21 $4.5m (Motte, Jason)
RP-22 $3.5m (Downs, Scott) .....................................RP-22 $4.0m (O’Day, Darren)
RP-23 $3.5m (Marshall, Sean) ..................................RP-23 $4.0m (Grilli, Jason)
RP-24 $3.5m (Papelbon, Jonathan) .......................RP-24 $4.0m (Lopez, Javier)
RP-25 $3.5m (Wheeler, Dan) ....................................RP-25 $4.0m (Howell, J.P.)
RP-26 $3m (Cruz, Juan) ..............................................RP-26 $4.0m (Hochevar, Luke)
RP-27 $3m (Soria, Joakim) ........................................RP-27 $4.0m (Estrada, Marco)
RP-28 $2.5m (Bard, Daniel) .......................................RP-28 $3.5m (Parnell, Bobby)
RP-29 $2.5m (Embree, Alan) .....................................RP-29 $3.5m (Parra, Manny)
RP-30 $2.5m (Marmol, Carlos) .................................RP-30 $3.5m (Thorton, Matt)
RP-31 $2.5m (Park, Chan Ho) ...................................RP-31 $3.5m (Belisle, Matt)
RP-32 $2.5m (Rauch, Jon) ..........................................RP-32 $3.5m (Detwiler, Ross)
RP-33 $2.5m (Soriano, Rafael) .................................RP-33 $3.0m (Matusz, Brian)
RP-34 $2.5m (Street, Huston) ..................................RP-34 $3.0m (Bastardo, Antonio)
RP-35 $2m (Adams, Mike) .........................................RP-35 $3.0m (Jepsen, Kevin)
RP-36 $2m (Corpas, Manuel) ....................................RP-36 $3.0m (Cotts, Neal)
RP-37 $2m (Guzman, Angel) .....................................RP-37 $3.0m (Choate, Randy)
RP-38 $2m (Hawkins, LaTroy) ...................................RP-38 $3.0m (Kelley, Shawn)
RP-39 $2m (Kobayahsi, Masahide) .........................RP-39 $2.5m (Webb, Ryan)
RP-40 $2m (Miller, Trever) ........................................RP-40 $2.5m (Duensing, Brian)
RP-41 $2m (Rhodes, Arthur) ....................................RP-41 $2.5m (Axford, John)
RP-42 $2m (Sherrill, George) ....................................RP-42 $2.5m (Strop, Pedro
RP-43 $2m (Wagner, Billy) ........................................RP-43 $2.5m (Walden, Jordan)
RP-44 $1.5m (Aardsma, David) ................................RP-44 $2.5m (Peralta, Joel)
RP-45 $1.5m (Bonser, Boof) ......................................RP-45 $2.5m (Perez, Oliver)
RP-46 $1.5m (Bruney, Brian) ......................................RP-46 $2.5m (Williams, Jerome)
RP-47 $1.5m (Capps, Matt) ........................................RP-47 $2.5m (Cecil, Brett)
RP-48 $1.5m (Delcarmen, Manny) ..........................RP-48 $2.5m (Russell, James)
RP-49 $1.5m (Durbin, Chad) .....................................RP-49 $2.5m (Sipp, Tony)
RP-50 $1.5m (Feliciano, Pedro) ................................RP-50 $2.5m (Blevins, Jerry)
RP-51 $1.5m (Franklin, Ryan) ....................................RP-51 $2.5m (Rzepczynski, Marc)
RP-52 $1.5m (Gonzalez, Mike) .................................RP-52 $2.5m (Dunn, Michael)
RP-53 $1.5m (Hanrahan, Joel) ..................................RP-53 $2.5m (Nicasio, Juan)
RP-54 $1.5m (Hoffman, Trevor) ...............................RP-54 $2.0m (Stammen, Craig)
RP-55 $1.5m (Howell, J.P.) ..........................................RP-55 $2.0m (Tazawa, Junichi)
RP-56 $1.5m (Kuo, Hong-Chih) ................................RP-56 $2.0m (Stauffer, Tim)
RP-57 $1.5m (Lewis, Colby) ........................................RP-57 $2.0m (Chavez, Jesse)
RP-58 $1.5m (Lincoln, Mike) ......................................RP-58 $2.0m (Petit, Yusmeiro)
RP-59 $1.5m (Monasterios, Carlos) .........................RP-59 $2.0m (Hernandez, David)
RP-60 $1.5m (Qualls, Chad) .......................................RP-60 $2.0m (Breslow, Craig)
RP-61 $1.5m (Reyes, Dennys) ...................................RP-61 $1.5m (Crow, Aaron)
RP-62 $1.5m (Rodney, Fernando) ...........................RP-62 $1.5m (LeClure, Sam)
RP-63 $1.5m (Saito, Takashi) .....................................RP-63 $1.5m (Watson, Tony)
RP-64 $1.5m (Wilson, C.J.) ..........................................RP-64 $1.5m (Alburquerque, Al)
RP-65 $1m (Betancourt, Rafael) ...............................RP-65 $1.5m (Wright, Wesley)
RP-66 $1m (Calero, Kiko) ...........................................RP-66 $1.5m (Herrera, Kelvin)
RP-67 $1m (Camp, Shawn) ........................................RP-67 $1.5m (Shaw, Bryan)
RP-68 $1m (Eyre, Scott) ..............................................RP-68 $1.5m (Tomlin, Josh)
RP-69 $1m (Frasor, Jason) ..........................................RP-69 $1.5m (Perez, Chris)
RP-70 $1m (Gutierrez, Juan) ......................................RP-70 $1.5m (Ogando, Alexi)
RP-71 $1m (Heilman, Aaron) ....................................RP-71 $1.5m (Collins, Tim)
RP-72 $1m (Kilby, Brad) ..............................................RP-72 $1.5m (Phelps, David)
RP-73 $1m (League, Brandon) .................................RP-73 $1.5m (Brothers, Rex)
RP-74 $1m (Medders, Brandon) ..............................RP-74 $1.5m (Cook, Ryan)
RP-75 $1m (Mota, Guillermo) ..................................RP-75 $1.5m (Thayer, Dale)
RP-76 $1m (Okajima, Hideki) ....................................RP-76 $1.5m (Fien, Casey)
RP-77 $1m (Tawaza, Junichi) ....................................RP-77 $1.5m (Salas, Fernando)   
RP-78 $1m (Thornton, Matt) .....................................RP-78 $1.5m (Ramos, Cesar)

As has been suggested in another thread, updating our salary schedules to reflect the current free agent market is something that needs to be done.  I believe that is at the heart of resolving our dilemma with RP compensation.

We all use a variety of players on (P-n/a) contracts of $0.5m to stretch our salary cap dollars.  With that, the 2015 RP Salary Schedule would seem to make it easier to give some of our RPs extensions, instead of just allowing them to go to Free Agency.  That said, I agree with BHows when (paraphrasing) he says FGM is a hitter friendly league and we have to guard against further devaluation of our Pitchers.  In our daily lineups, we have 5 RPs on a given day, and with our pitching limits, RPs are of value to each of our teams.  With the revision of the salary rankings, I believe that we can keep our current formula for establishing a Type A & B free agent if we do something like the following:

Therefore, for Franchise GM, Type A FA are:
Top 6 C
Top 12 MI, CI
Top 15 OF
Top 30 SP
Top 7 RP

Type B FA are:
7th - 12th ranked C
13th - 24th ranked MI, CI
16th - 30th ranked OF
31st - 60th ranked SP
8th - 13th ranked RP

This would go along with the idea of adjusting the value of RPs to 25% of SPs and allow RPs to retain some value in FGM (#7 and #13 are used as cutoff limits because of the salary changes at those levels on the new scale).

This is, of course, in the discussion phase, so please share your thoughts.