Questions/Suggestions

[Vik]

From league rules "Only the owner that owns that player can pay part of that player's contract in a trade. If 3 or more teams are in a trade, that 3rd team can not pay part of a salary going from team 1 to team 2 or vice-versa."

Yes per rules, only team moving the player can pay for part of their contract

Thanks, I should have checked rules  :doh:

[DynastyDeacon]

What are the rules regarding the releasing of fully paid players or partially paid players and the buyout implications if the total amount paid by others is greater than the buyout amount.

The equation for calculating the buyout price is the cap hit added up from each year minus the amount paid by others. If the amount paid by others is greater than the total buyout price, would the person that dropped the player get the difference as extra cap space?

IE: Taurean Prince $14.5m (2022) is fully paid by Los Angeles Lakers. The buyout price of the original amount due is $10.9m. Can Utah Jazz buy out Taurean Prince and get $3.6m in extra cap space this year?

A more extreme example:

IE: Could I trade for Blake Griffin $16.7m (2023) and have Detroit Pistons pay $16.7m each year. The buyout price of the original amount due is $20.9m. The amount paid by others would be $33.4m. Could I then buy out Blake Griffin and gain the difference of $12.5m in extra cap space this year?

[Billy]

Answered this in :UT: moves post but copied here as well:

I've never been able to clearly explain my thought process on this kind of deal.

Essentially yes if a player is paid any kind of cap exchange from a trade that amount goes to the buyout of the player and the team dropping him would only pay a cap hit equal to whatever is needed to cover the rest of the cap hit. IE if someone's cap hit is $7m for dropping and another team is paying him $5m, the releasing team would need to pay the remaining $2m cap hit.

If someone is fully paid, then the dropping team would just have the players cap dropped along with the cap exchange for a net $0 gaining. Would create too much of an trade advantage if someone could trade for some high contract player fully paid and drop them to gain some cap space.

[Interpaga]

We post in this section because we want to avoid to interfere in a trade with an off-topic discussion, as happened instead last week in the Derozan trade. We kindly ask the league manager a clarification about trades between rebuilding teams and contenders. Last week a trade between Spurs and Clippers was vetoed or, better, not even let to be voted. Now, an almost identical trade has just been posted. In our opinion both trades should be approved because they are fair and benefit all the teams involved but, considering the previous one was vetoed and abruptly deleted, we just ask an opinion to the league manager on veto/approval policy regarding trades involving old players with expensive contracts in rebuilding teams.
We believe that the same rules should be applied throughout the entire league. 10 days ago we lost an opportunity for finalizing a trade without even a vote taking place. A few days later, a very analogous trade with the same logic was finalized and, a bit surprisingly, by the same member who vetoed our trade.
We just think a clarification/opinion by the league manager is important on this topic

[DynastyDeacon]

I am also curious as to the answer of the above question.

Lowry and DeRozan make a very interesting case study as both have similar current values at #68 (DeRozan) and #71 (Lowry) overall and both have a 4 year/$22m per year contract running now through the 24-25 season. I think it is important to do an analysis of players currently playing that are their same ages and older as that can give perspective as to what to expect in terms of their future value in trades and future playing ability. This can give valuable insight into when a player goes from having value to just being a salary dump.

Current Ages:
Kyle Lowry - 35 years old
Demar DeRozan - 32 years old

Age at the end of this season:
Kyle Lowry - 36 years old
Demar DeRozan - 32 years old

Age at the end of the 2024-2025 season (June 2025) when both their 4 year/$22m per year contracts expire.
Kyle Lowry - 39 years old
Demar DeRozan - 35 years old

Many players are still in their prime in their early 30s. There are quite a few players still playing at an extremely high level in their early to mid 30s: (Steph Curry - 33 years old, #2 rank; James Harden - 32 years old, #10 rank; Kevin Durant - 33 years old, #16 rank; Paul George - 31 years old, #18 rank; Gordon Hayward - 31 years old, #19 rank; Russel Westbrook - 33 years old, #25 rank; Al Horford - 35 years old, #35 rank; CJ McCollum - 31 years old, #39 rank; Damian Lillard - 31 years old, #40 rank; Chris Paul - 36 years old, #44 rank; LeBron James - 36 years old, #51 rank; Ricky Rubio - 31 years old, #58 rank). There are several others in the top #100, but I stopped at #60 overall.

For some additional important perspective on a players ability to continue playing at a high level at certain ages, at the start of this season the oldest players in the league are:
1) Udonis Haslem - 41 years old
2) Andre Igoudala - 37
3) Carmelo Anthony - 37
4) LeBron James - 36
5) Paul Millsap - 36
6) P.J. Tucker - 36
7) Chris Paul - 36
Taj Gibson - 36
9) Trevor Ariza - 36
10) LaMarcus Aldridge - 36

It is rather common for a player to still be in their prime in their early 30s, still have substantial value (top 50 or top 100 value) in their mid-30s, but very rarely does a player have any value or even the ability to play at all in their upper 30s as seen above. Certainly some players slow down in their early 30s, but if a player has stayed rather healthy and is still playing at a high level in their early 30s they often still have substantial value in their mid-30s. I think the trades in this league have followed that premise rather accurately as Lowry was shopped significantly and most didn't want him for a 2nd round pick even if he was fully paid for the current year. While players in their early 30s like Steph Curry, Paul George, Demar DeRozan, Nikola Vucevic, Draymond Green were all traded for significant returns or signed to large contracts in free agency.

Draymond Green was more recently signed to a 5 year, $50m per year deal to run through 2026 when he will be 36 years old at the end of that contract.

[Interpaga]

Derozan is 3 years younger than Lowry but still remains a 32 years old player with a very expensive 4 years contract. There is a difference in value between Derozan and Lowry but there is a difference also between the two packages of picks/players offered for them.
We do not want to start an asset-by-asset comparison of the two trades, this is not our goal.
It is pretty clear, in our opinion, that the logic, the type of teams involved (rebuilding team and contender) and the overall balance of the traded assets in the 2 trades are very similar.
We just would like to have a clarification on the policy about trades between contenders and rebuilding teams involving old players with expensive contracts, to avoid that similar trades are treated in different ways

[Interpaga]

I am also curious as to the answer of the above question.

Lowry and DeRozan make a very interesting case study as both have similar current values at #68 (DeRozan) and #71 (Lowry) overall and both have a 4 year/$22m per year contract running now through the 24-25 season. I think it is important to do an analysis of players currently playing that are their same ages and older as that can give perspective as to what to expect in terms of their future value in trades and future playing ability. This can give valuable insight into when a player goes from having value to just being a salary dump.

Current Ages:
Kyle Lowry - 35 years old
Demar DeRozan - 32 years old

Age at the end of this season:
Kyle Lowry - 36 years old
Demar DeRozan - 32 years old

Age at the end of the 2024-2025 season (June 2025) when both their 4 year/$22m per year contracts expire.
Kyle Lowry - 39 years old
Demar DeRozan - 35 years old

Many players are still in their prime in their early 30s. There are quite a few players still playing at an extremely high level in their early to mid 30s: (Steph Curry - 33 years old, #2 rank; James Harden - 32 years old, #10 rank; Kevin Durant - 33 years old, #16 rank; Paul George - 31 years old, #18 rank; Gordon Hayward - 31 years old, #19 rank; Russel Westbrook - 33 years old, #25 rank; Al Horford - 35 years old, #35 rank; CJ McCollum - 31 years old, #39 rank; Damian Lillard - 31 years old, #40 rank; Chris Paul - 36 years old, #44 rank; LeBron James - 36 years old, #51 rank; Ricky Rubio - 31 years old, #58 rank). There are several others in the top #100, but I stopped at #60 overall.

For some additional important perspective on a players ability to continue playing at a high level at certain ages, at the start of this season the oldest players in the league are:
1) Udonis Haslem - 41 years old
2) Andre Igoudala - 37
3) Carmelo Anthony - 37
4) LeBron James - 36
5) Paul Millsap - 36
6) P.J. Tucker - 36
7) Chris Paul - 36
Taj Gibson - 36
9) Trevor Ariza - 36
10) LaMarcus Aldridge - 36

It is rather common for a player to still be in their prime in their early 30s, still have substantial value (top 50 or top 100 value) in their mid-30s, but very rarely does a player have any value or even the ability to play at all in their upper 30s as seen above. Certainly some players slow down in their early 30s, but if a player has stayed rather healthy and is still playing at a high level in their early 30s they often still have substantial value in their mid-30s. I think the trades in this league have followed that premise rather accurately as Lowry was shopped significantly and most didn't want him for a 2nd round pick even if he was fully paid for the current year. While players in their early 30s like Steph Curry, Paul George, Demar DeRozan, Nikola Vucevic, Draymond Green were all traded for significant returns or signed to large contracts in free agency.

Unfortunately past trades simply do not validate the last sentence above. For example, Draymond Green, a fully comparable player with Derozan (same age, ranking and contract), was mentioned. He was traded twice last year:

GS trades
PF/C Draymon Green $24.9m 2024 ($17.9m paid 21 & 22)

76ers trade
2nd rd picks (2020, '21, '22).

And then

76ers trade
PF Dramond Green $24.9 (2024)
$17.9m paid by GS 2020 & 2021
$7m paid by 76ers 2020

Boston trades
2nd rd pick (SG Jay Scrubb)

Both trades were approved.

We thought the veto/block on Derozan trade was reflecting a change of opinion/policy on trades between a contender and a rebuilding team, but after the recent trade was posted we have doubts about it.

Look forward to receiving a clarification about trade policy from the league manager

[Billy]

The trade was removed because the discussion over that trade got extremely and unnecessarily out of hand.

There will be no back and forth discussion over trades any longer. If a trade is posted, the only posts made should be a person voting. And if they veto, a simple reason for that veto.

[Interpaga]

Thanks for the reply.

So we assume that there are no changes in the policy on trades involving old players with expensive contracts and that Derozan trade was just a one-off situation, where a trade with good chances to be approved (on the basis of previous and following trades) was removed just because it was overshadowed by an off-topic discussion.

Considering that there is not a strict written rule for approving/vetoing this type of trades, we think the valuation/veto should take into consideration a bunch of past trades comparable (Steph Curry, Draymond Green twice and now Kyle Lowry) and, considering that a degree of subjectivity in any case will remain, each voting member should at least maintain consistency with his/her previous votes

[DynastyDeacon]

Thanks for the reply.

So we assume that there are no changes in the policy on trades involving old players with expensive contracts and that Derozan trade was just a one-off situation, where a trade with good chances to be approved (on the basis of previous and following trades) was removed just because it was overshadowed by an off-topic discussion.

Considering that there is not a strict written rule for approving/vetoing this type of trades, we think the valuation/veto should take into consideration a bunch of past trades comparable (Steph Curry, Draymond Green twice and now Kyle Lowry) and, considering that a degree of subjectivity in any case will remain, each voting member should at least maintain consistency with his/her previous votes

I would really like to move on from this, especially since I am now boldly being accused of purposefully torpedoing a trade. I'll give you my reasoning for the differences in the trades below briefly, but I really want the current accusations against me to stop.


Kyle Lowry trade vs. Demar DeRozan - same exact contract 4 year, $22m per year contract, DeRozan will be 35 years old at the end of the contract. There are plenty of players balling out at 35 years old, including Kyle Lowry (currently). Kyle Lowry will be 39 years old at the end of his contract. He will be 37 years old before the final two years of his contract (turning 37 years old in the 2nd year of a 4 year contract) and there were only 3 players that were even capable of playing in the NBA at the start of this season that were 37 years old or older. Only 1, Carmelo Anthony, has any value at all and on any any other team besides the dysfunctional Lakers he probably has no value either. Therefore, it can be assumed that there is only a slim chance Lowry will even be in the league or able to perform at all at the end of his contract, while DeRozan may still be a consistent top #100 player.


Draymond Green trade #1 & #2 - was prior to the 2020-21 season when Green was being paid a 4 year, $24.9m per year contract after coming off finishes of #113 and #187. DeRozan has been a top 100 fixture the last 3 years at #59, #67, #85, and this year currently at #64. Green was more expensive and a lot worse/injury prone, looking like he might never be the player he once was due to injuries. According to how well DeRozan is playing and his current rank, he is still playing at a consistent high level, which is not uncommon for players in their early 30s. The primary risk to that though is injuries, which is why Draymond's worth was so low. After being traded Draymond Green was later bought out as his contract was determined to be so awful and his value so low. If Demar DeRozan is equal Interpaga should be happy his trade was vetoed and he can keep his picks and players vs. having to buy out DeRozan. After the approval of the Green trades he was bought out. After the attempted trade for DeRozan he was traded for Nikola Vucevic. That doesn't sound like two even players to me.

Dynasty Guru's top 185 dynasty rankings in December 2020 around the time Green was traded twice left Draymond Green off their list of top 185 players. I cannot find any other rankings from that time period. Draymond has significantly more value now than he did then as he started playing much better at the end of last season after being released. He was awful in the first half of last year. As Interpaga mentioned previously its important to look at the trades at the time they were made.


Steph Curry - was 32 years old at the time of the trade. Same as DeRozan is now. Curry was coming off a rank of #397 in 19-20, having only played 5 games after returning from a hand injury. He didn't look like the player he was prior to the injury and averaged only 20.8 points per game with a .402 FG%. Given his age and the injury and the little we saw of him in the 19-20 season it was fair to think that he might not go back to playing at a high level at the time the trade was made. He was also traded for the #21 and #51 picks in the 2020 NBA draft and a 1st round pick in 2021. Nobody knew how good OKC would be at the beginning of the season so the 1st round pick in 2021 had more value than it does now. Your 1st will be worst then the #21 pick, especially if getting DeRozan, and your 2nd was most likely worthless. Therefore two picks in the Curry trade had more value than your best pick in the DeRozan trade. As shown above DeRozan has been a healthy sure thing for many years now and is still playing at a consistent high level.

We could dance back and forth on player values and differences of opinions. I have no interest in that. Please stop trying to make me look bad. You were upset with my accusations and insinuations before. I get that. Please don't do the same thing to me. I apologized and tried to move on. I suggest you do the same now. I have never cast a veto vote for my own benefit or allowed a trade for my own benefit. I vote what I believe to be accurate and best based on my own evaluations. You are certainly welcome to disagree as you apparently do. Going forward I will stick to a brief paragraph like the above if I have to cast a veto vote and won't engage with a manager if they disagree and want to argue. I apologize to the league for before when I became involved in a back and forth on a trade. I am sorry for having upset you Interpaga, but please move on. We are allowed to disagree on whether a trade should be allowed or vetoed. It isn't anything personal. I recently improved a rival in the East Coast in Miami with a trade from Toronto, which will most likely hurt my New York Knicks in the playoffs. I am managing my teams with what I believe is the best for them, I suggest you do the same and put whatever feelings you have against me aside. Please, move on.

This is my last comment on here. Say whatever you want. I won't be entertaining or acknowledging any of this anymore. It's time to move on.