POLL: Let's vote on how we want to adjust pitching scoring.

[Brewers GM]

Understood, but the RP extension values are artificially inflating the cost to re-sign certain SP/RP that are starters this year.  For example, Matt Harrison is the 93rd ranked SP in 2011, but the 9th best RP, because he was an RP last year.  He has not come in relief one game this year.

But if you play him at RP, he has the 9th highest points total for all players in the league eligible at that position.

[Brewers GM]

I agree completely with Dan.  I also think having the scoring system award negative points for sub-par starts (very rare with current system) will help discourage pitcher streaming since there will be built in consequences.

[Brewers GM]

.361

While it may or may not be enough to make the guy a decent pitcher, that is some pretty horrible luck.  I would guess that if he improved his BB/IP to be decent (no small feat), maintained his K/IP and GB/IP at their current levels and had average luck (0.300 to 0.310 BABIP) then he'd have a pretty decent ERA.

[rcankosy]

While it may or may not be enough to make the guy a decent pitcher, that is some pretty horrible luck.  I would guess that if he improved his BB/IP to be decent (no small feat), maintained his K/IP and GB/IP at their current levels and had average luck (0.300 to 0.310 BABIP) then he'd have a pretty decent ERA.

And if the Queen had balls, she'd be King.  The loser's name is Doug Davis.

[joeshmoe]

I agree completely with Dan.  I also think having the scoring system award negative points for sub-par starts (very rare with current system) will help discourage pitcher streaming since there will be built in consequences.

A scoring system which associates negative points for pitching would not eliminate the streaming of starters.  It would eliminate it for teams which couldn't afford to do so.  Other teams would that could afford it would continue to do so.

Furthermore, it would make pitching even less important in this league, centralizing more power on the hitters.  I can't believe how much this league is for handicapping hitting.  Really guys, if you don't have a big bat you just might as well consider rebuilding.  It would be ridiculous.

Parody in this league is achieved when there are multiple ways to compete.  Why do we want to eliminate different formula's for success?

Can somebody please explain to me the reason for favoring hitters so much?  Maybe that would help me understand these discussions better. 

[joeshmoe]

And if the Queen had balls, she'd be King.  The loser's name is Doug Davis.

Certainly a valuable loser in this format... :rofl:

Nice thread Roy!

[h4cheng]

I agree with both of Dan and Ben.

A strategy that others and myself would currently use is to look for any free agent pitchers that is schedule to start (example: Kyle Davies), pick them off FA and start them without ever looking at the opponent, pitcher's ability and track record. Is that really what we want? To have a race and see who can pick up crappy pitcher faster?

Picking up on what Dan said, having excess pitchers really put some market teams at a disadvantage. Chris imagine you are competing against me, we both have the batters and 5 SPs of the same quality, but because I am big market team, I can afford to stash away another 4 crappy SPs and you can't. You are not going to be able to compete with me and weekly basis because of it.

I dont think you can really stream batters in this league. It wouldnt really work for batters because if a scrub goes 0-4, that's -40 points. I dont see how "A scoring system which associates negative points for pitching would not eliminate the streaming of starters.  It would eliminate it for teams which couldn't afford to do so." Maybe you could elaborate?

[h4cheng]

Also to dispell this notion that a team can win without pitching. Check out the top 20 SPs in the league
and who they play for:

NYY: Sabathia, Hernandez, Verlander
PHI: Halladay, Hamels, Lee
MIL: SHields, Haren, Masterson
ATL: Weaver, Garcia
LAD: Kershaw
SF: Lincecum
CHW: Hudson
BOS: Sanchez
SF: Cain
TEX: Wilson
TOR: Stauffer

Out of these 20 players, 2 of them plays for team under .500 The top 2 team of the league
combine for more than a quarter of the top 20 SPs.

[joeshmoe]

I agree with both of Dan and Ben.

A strategy that others and myself would currently use is to look for any free agent pitchers that is schedule to start (example: Kyle Davies), pick them off FA and start them without ever looking at the opponent, pitcher's ability and track record. Is that really what we want? To have a race and see who can pick up crappy pitcher faster?

Picking up on what Dan said, having excess pitchers really put some market teams at a disadvantage. Chris imagine you are competing against me, we both have the batters and 5 SPs of the same quality, but because I am big market team, I can afford to stash away another 4 crappy SPs and you can't. You are not going to be able to compete with me and weekly basis because of it.

It isn't a free swap to do that though.  By choosing to employ that strategy you have forgone 4 spots for other guys.  It's an opportunity cost.  I think a laisse-faire market would regulate itself in this scenario.  You aren't free to just add a guy either, like if it were a league with no contracts.  You incur penalties to release a player, and the odds of somebody entering a bidding war are pretty good.  These factors are all, in my mind, enough to level the playing field.

I dont think you can really stream batters in this league. It wouldnt really work for batters because if a scrub goes 0-4, that's -40 points. I dont see how "A scoring system which associates negative points for pitching would not eliminate the streaming of starters.  It would eliminate it for teams which couldn't afford to do so." Maybe you could elaborate?

You could certainly stream batters.  Most teams do this, by playing bench players during a starters day off.  Just because you're streaming a batter doesn't mean they're going to be a scrub who goes 0-4.  That may be one instance but there are many more examples where a team could stream a slew of quality batters.  Should we close this as well?

Elaboration on my quoted sentences.  If you're a large market team, such as the Yankees and have 200m, you could afford to put 8 quality SPs out there during the week, so you wouldn't have to worry about negative points.  Negative points wouldn't stop pitcher streaming by itself, it still would require a innings limit, otherwise the rich would exploit the system.  Further, the teams at the bottom would continue to stay there because they dont dare put a SP out because he may have a bad start, which would eliminate starting prospects and pitchers which at least score 10-15 points. 

Lastly, and back to the overall issue; is there a way to lock the lineup for SPs through fantrax, but not the hitters?  Weekly lineups for starters would solve the issue and would allow leniency for those times when a team has a SP with multiple starts in one week of scoring.  Not that I am for solving the "issue".

[joeshmoe]

Also to dispell this notion that a team can win without pitching. Check out the top 20 SPs in the league
and who they play for:

NYY: Sabathia, Hernandez, Verlander
PHI: Halladay, Hamels, Lee
MIL: SHields, Haren, Masterson
ATL: Weaver, Garcia
LAD: Kershaw
SF: Lincecum
CHW: Hudson
BOS: Sanchez
SF: Cain
TEX: Wilson
TOR: Stauffer

Out of these 20 players, 2 of them plays for team under .500 The top 2 team of the league
combine for more than a quarter of the top 20 SPs.

I started to do research to point out a major flaw in your approach to this post.  Look at the bats for those teams...

NYY have three top pitchers, but two of their bats (Beltran and Miguel Cabrera) have just as many points.  That's only two of their position players.  Where as three of the top pitchers combined barely equal their fantasy points for the season.  That is one example. 

The Phillies, who you put up there, had more points from their lineup, by-far, than did their pitching staff, and Paul Malholm went off for 150 points during that period!  They still scored 1400 points! 

How about the Pirates, they compete because they can roll out a bunch of decent-good-really good guys...it allows small market teams to compete.  But Colby isn't littering the add/drop threads by picking up and dropping free agents.

It just doesn't add up is all.