The saga of an invalidated trade

[Flash]

By the way, to make clear we are on the same page, I sent a final offer to Vols. Vols had not accepted it. I was waiting for his response. Apparently he tried to log when the server was down. Apparently, he did not have time to return until two mins before the deadline. At that time I am already asleep, thinking Vols simply did not intend to accept the offer. It is not that we had both agreed upon the deal and 'forgotten to post it'. It is just that we were at a point where me posting that trade would had been spam.  I think there is no reason to believe that a trade that is posted by one of the parts is not an already agreed upon trade. If it were, the other person could simply deny it and be done with that. But if the other person is confirming it, clearly the agreement had occurred beforehand and the deal already exists.

Was a final offer sent to the Rays GM?  I know that's what you're saying, but that's not what I gather from the trade rationale that was posted.  Just to be clear, here's what was posted:

This deal was offered via a PM a few days ago and completely forgot about/lost/buried until the last hour.  Held out until last minute to see if Daniel would be able to respond for certainty.  Wanted to get this posted with the full understanding that Daniel has full right to not accept this deal, as the PM was not an official offer, but close enough that I wanted to get this posted in case the offer was official.  Daniel and Toronto to confirm if they so choose.

I did not make up the part about the trade being forgotten, I gathered that from the initial post.  From his posted trade rationale I see that the Rays GM "Held out until last minute to see if Daniel would be able to respond for certainty."  Yet you say you made a final offer to him and went to sleep waiting for him to accept.  It would seem that the Rays GM did everything he could to finalize negotiations with you, but you never confirmed anything.  I'm not making that up or twisting anyone's words, it's right there in his trade rationale.  He is so unsure of the trade that he points out "the PM was not an official offer" and he even gives you an out by saying you don't have to accept it.  Clearly, this trade was not formalized at the time the Rays posted it and server issues aside, it is pretty clear that negotiations went on earlier in the week and could have been finalized and posted--but the two of you never really came to any sort of final agreement.

No one is proposing that trade offers be negotiated on the board or posted before the two parties finalize the terms.  All of us negotiate via PM, messenger, or e-mail--sometimes with multiple parties involving the same players.  However, in the years I have been in this league, I cannot remember anyone putting forth the argument that a trade was legal before there was confirmation from both parties.  In some cases it takes a few minutes and in some cases it takes a few days, and most of the time it doesn't matter because most of the time we can do things at our leisure.  But when there is a deadline, it means there is a cutoff point and things have to be consummated before that deadline passes--otherwise there is no point in having a deadline.

When you say, "It is clear to me that if a trade is posted on the boards it is because there is already a verbal agreement in place."; what is clear to me is that that there was no verbal agreement in place between the two of you because both of you state you were waiting for the other to confirm.  That miscommunication led to the trade being invalidated and it's hard to accept because nobody likes to miss out on something because we missed a deadline.   

[Daniel]

I think what Vols meant with that phrase was that so much time had elapsed that he wanted to confirm the offer still stood before posting it. I did not sent that offer the day of the deadline, and I had not forgotten about it. I had sent it several days before and he had failed to confirm because he forgot. I was just waiting from confirmation from him, but from my side the offer was delivered as set. That is why I am saying that once it was posted it was agreed upon.

'Alex Jackson, Tim Beckham and Darin Ruf (getting rid of his contract is a must to make it an even deal because VMart is no more than a rental for me, as I have no cap to resign him). Oh and I would need you to pay the difference on VMart this year since I have no cap room'

This was my PM to him. It pretty clearly says the terms of the offer that was posted. No modifications that would had needed further confirmation.

So, all in all, if he had forgotten and remembered just in time for the deadline, it sucks that it took so long, but it should still be valid as there was an agreement in place by that time.

[Flash]

I think what Vols meant with that phrase was that so much time had elapsed that he wanted to confirm the offer still stood before posting it. I did not sent that offer the day of the deadline, and I had not forgotten about it. I had sent it several days before and he had failed to confirm because he forgot. I was just waiting from confirmation from him, but from my side the offer was delivered as set. That is why I am saying that once it was posted it was agreed upon.

'Alex Jackson, Tim Beckham and Darin Ruf (getting rid of his contract is a must to make it an even deal because VMart is no more than a rental for me, as I have no cap to resign him). Oh and I would need you to pay the difference on VMart this year since I have no cap room'

This was my PM to him. It pretty clearly says the terms of the offer that was posted. No modifications that would had needed further confirmation.

So, all in all, if he had forgotten and remembered just in time for the deadline, it sucks that it took so long, but it should still be valid as there was an agreement in place by that time.

In your confirmation reply, posted some 15 hours later, didn't you say: "Sorry, I had forgotten to post it too."?  Why play the blame game and put it on the Rays?  Is that really necessary?  Seems like he was the one who was trying to salvage the situation.  He forgot, you forgot, he was waiting for you to confirm, you were waiting for him to confirm--it all comes down to one thing--you missed the deadline--plain and simple.  I agree with you, "it sucks", but you need to accept some responsibility here.  There was a posted deadline, and for whatever reason, you missed it.

From your perspective, you had a deal, but apparently from the Rays GM's perspective, you did not.  What else can be said?  It's unfortunate, and I'm sorry it played out the way it has, but it's time to move on.

[Daniel]

Whatever. If I posted that was because I did not want to contradict Vols's story at the time. We clearly had a deal and he posted before the deadline. It really sucks that this league has lost its comprehensiveness. But whatever, really.

[Corey]

I have locked the original thread concerning this issue because things have gotten out of control.  I'm not here to defend what we do or tell you we're doing the best we can.  However, it's time to step back and look beyond our emotions.

My ascension to the role of Co-Commissioner is not uncommon throughout the vast array of ProFSL leagues--someone comes up with a idea for a league, writes up some rules, recruits some members, gets the league in motion and then leaves or asks someone else to take over because they have something else to do.  The problem with that scenario is that sometimes things get a little lax and new leaders find themselves overextended or overwhelmed and they begin to let things slide.

Please don't think for a minute I am casting stones at my predecessors--for I am not.  As a Co-Commissioner, I'll be the first to admit there are times when I could have done things differently.  During a Rules Committee discussion, joeshmoe reminded me of the importance of sticking to the issues and not letting it sink to a level of personal attacks.  Although that pronouncement was like a slap in the face, he was right and it has served as a reminder that I need to control my emotions.

Unfortunately, my lack of foresight has put my Co-Commissioner in a bad situation.  One of the goals we have set for ourselves as leaders is to be more consistent in our rules enforcement.  We have tweaked some rules for the betterment of the league, gotten rid of others, and tried to effectively utilize the ones we have in place.  Common sense should have told me that allowing a trade to be posted at 11:58 pm without confirmation from both teams was only going to cause trouble.  I ruled it to be invalid at first and then changed my mind and let it stand.  I was wrong.  I was wrong because I failed to really look at why it was being posted so late.  It had nothing to do with a server problem because both GMs readily admit to negotiating the trade earlier in the week and simply failing to post it.  Extending the trade deadline was really not pertinent in this case because both trading partners were guilty of something that hurts us all once in awhile--forgetfulness.

Is a lost trade really a tipping point?  Over the years I have had things overturned because they were against the rules--and yes, I felt like quitting--but I thought about it and came to grips with the fact that I am not above the rules and that their application was not something I should take so personal.  This, of course, applies to me and is intended to illustrate my perspective and is not a characterization of anyone in FGM.

I guess this invalidated trade is in fact the tipping point for the Rays GM.  Earlier in the discussion he declared that at the of the season he would be resigning from the league--with the qualifier that it would give us time to find a replacement.  Honoring that would clearly put the new GM at a disadvantage and it is not a request that can be deemed acceptable. 

I do not want the Rays GM, or anyone else, to quit.  I think things were said and feelings were hurt, but when things stop being fun, then I guess it's time to move on.  As a Co-Commissioner do I get any special joy out of telling people no or  getting called out? Do I like being portrayed as a dictator or as a rigid, archaic leader?  Does it make me feel good when I'm bashed for enforcing the rules?  Of course not?  But I know it comes with the territory and sometimes, as my colleague reminded me, I have to play Joe Friday and stick to the facts.  I stepped up as a leader of this league and do not apologize for it.  Whether anyone can see it or not, I'm continually looking for ways to improve things, and I believe in the value of rules and their uniform application.

I'm sorry for the grief that has evolved from this invalidated trade, but make no mistake about it, no one is being forced out.  A resignation in anger is still a resignation, and unfortunately, it's something I have to deal with.  I wish I didn't have to, but I do, and I will have to find a replacement GM for the Rays.

Please note:  Since the Rays GM has announced that his resignation is immediate, I am going to have to remove any players he put on waivers.

Well said Ernie. The joys of running leagues for the enjoyment of others

All said I think everyone understands that a lot time and commitment goes into running a league. Ernie, I am glad you and Rick took control of FGM or we would not be were we are today.