2nd Franchise Tag Proposal

[Vik]

This is something I've recently been mulling over a few days now, and was able to look into numbers today to get this proposal. I know this is a pretty big change, but the current franchise tag values are pricey and really mostly will be used for the top tier guys. As we are in our 3rd season now there has not been much rule changes and league is in good health, but I am thinking this is something that might make league better.

I am not going to rush this and appreciate all feedback, if you like the idea but not the specifics I am open to modifying slightly and/or starting only 2 offseason for now if this is what most prefeed (if we implement it I prefer to allow starting this year but understand it might be more fair to wait a year). While the idea is straight forward, this post contains a lot so do take time to digest everything as I figured best to include as much detail as possible to help everyone evaluate. Hopefully it's clear and I think I'll probably be repeating my self but just want to stress exactly how I thought it would work.

Current regular tag is here for reference: http://www.profsl.com/smf/index.php?action=post;msg=1462148;topic=376222.0

Proposed 2020-2021 Tier 2 Franchise Tag Values (50% of regular tag)

We allow a 2nd tag based on primary position that is exactly 50% of regular tag, with the catch that player must be outside of top 15 for the specific position based on Fantrax ranks last 2 seasons.

Note: Fantrax has guys with multiple potions but we still use spotrac.com as the way to determine the primary position for us. However, if a guy is listed as PG/SG as an example we will include him in top 15 on both lists to keep it simple. When you see the list below the overlap players were kept in and some players may also be top 15 1 season not both. Check spreadsheet for your primary position on players, but also good to double check sportac in case there is discrepancy.  Also, I am not huge on how Fantrax ranks things but it is best we have to go off of.

Very simply put a non RFA player ranked top 15 and expiring is eligible to be kept at existing tag. Same idea but for anyone ranked 16 or greater can be kept at discount tag as show below for current values.

PG Value: $16.1m

SG Value: $14.7m

SF Value: $12.0m

PF Value: $12.8m

C Value: $13.0m


Essentially along with RFA process (these players are always excluded from Tag option to begin with) everyone is now allowed to keep 1 super star with current tag and 1 top tier role player/star player if we allow 2nd tag, before entering FA. Some teams may still not use either, or only 1 but just gives another option for team control.

Players that would only be eligible for regular tag are going to be those end of current season ranks + season rank last year but for this past season cut of March 11th, as this is used in my other league and makes sense due to pandemic shorted season. This season things change daily, not sure it makes sense to post players now with so much year left, but if you want to see how things look today can play around on Fantrax filters anytime, but I am sharing the list that is final from last year as a base for you to get a sense of things.

I am thinking this helps with assessing if you have guys outside of this list that are not worth full tag but would make sense on the 50% discount.

Excluded players for tier 2 tag (i.e. they would fall under regular tag option only if eligible) based only on last season at the moment, March 11th, 2020 as cut off

As mentioned, final list for current season will be determined end of regular year so will have 1 clean list at this time should this pass, but since last season won't change this is the base to work with:


PG

James Harden
LeBron James
Zach LaVine
Damian Lillard
Jrue Holiday
Luka Doncic
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
CJ McCollum
Trae Young
Chris Paul
Donovan Mitchell
Kyle Lowry
Russell Westbrook
Devonte' Graham
Terry Rozier

SG

James Harden
Kawhi Leonard
Zach LaVine
Bradley Beal
Jrue Holiday
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
Brandon Ingram
CJ McCollum
Donovan Mitchell
Andrew Wiggins
Jimmy Butler
Devonte' Graham
Buddy Hield
Terry Rozier
Will Barton

SF

James Harden
Jayson Tatum
LeBron James
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Kawhi Leonard
Zach LaVine
Robert Covington
Jrue Holiday
Luka Doncic
Tobias Harris
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
Brandon Ingram
Kelly Oubre Jr.
Andrew Wiggins
Jimmy Butler

PF

Jayson Tatum
Anthony Davis
LeBron James
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Nikola Jokic
Robert Covington
Pascal Siakam
Kristaps Porzingis
Tobias Harris
Brandon Ingram
Bam Adebayo
Nikola Vucevic
Andre Drummond
LaMarcus Aldridge
Kelly Oubre Jr.

C

Anthony Davis
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Nikola Jokic
Robert Covington
Kristaps Porzingis
Bam Adebayo
Nikola Vucevic
Andre Drummond
LaMarcus Aldridge
Al Horford
Jaren Jackson
Karl-Anthony Towns
Brook Lopez
Joel Embiid
Kevin Love


Think I covered everything and got it correctly, so based on feedback we will see what makes the most sense.

[DinkyCarsPlus]

Allow 2nd tag 50% of tag

[curtmenefee47]

If you were to tag and trade this player would you only have to get 1 future first rounder or a player on a rookie deal? Or would the same rule still apply to both?

[Vik]

If you were to tag and trade this player would you only have to get 1 future first rounder or a player on a rookie deal? Or would the same rule still apply to both?

Good question, I don't recall a tag and trade being done in our history so far with existing tag, so forgot to mention it here, but on the tier 2 tag most logical option is to make it either a rookie contract or 1st round pick. I can see a tag and trade for this option much more likely if it passes.

[Vik]

Seems like most are in favor here in some form but hopefully can get a few more votes and feedback before finalizing.

For those who voted option 2 to allow but with delay or modification, I'd appreciate additional feedback. Is it mostly to wait until 2022 or do you have suggestion on the actual structure proposed?

[WizKidFromSpace]

I'm seeing a lot of overlap in player representation at the different positions. SF is a catch-all in the sense that a lot of PFs also have SF designation, as do a significant number of SGs. In the current franchise tag calculations, players are only designated with one position via Spotrac right? Should the same not apply in the case of the 2nd franchise tag?

I don't like the idea of specific players seeing substantial rises in value due to being just outside the top 15 cutoff, but if the players are only represented in one position like I suggested above, then I don't expect the 2nd tag to be valuable in 99% of cases.

I guess succinctly, I don't mind the change as long as it doesn't turn into something that is as or more practically valuable than the actual franchise tag.

[Vik]

I'm seeing a lot of overlap in player representation at the different positions. SF is a catch-all in the sense that a lot of PFs also have SF designation, as do a significant number of SGs. In the current franchise tag calculations, players are only designated with one position via Spotrac right? Should the same not apply in the case of the 2nd franchise tag?

I don't like the idea of specific players seeing substantial rises in value due to being just outside the top 15 cutoff, but if the players are only represented in one position like I suggested above, then I don't expect the 2nd tag to be valuable in 99% of cases.

I guess succinctly, I don't mind the change as long as it doesn't turn into something that is as or more practically valuable than the actual franchise tag.

Good point, the overlap is there based on Fantrax giving multi postions. I guess it may make more sense to specify per a postion using spotrac as well. It was just eaiser to do a mass download from Fantrax and copy and past over as is.  I was also unsure if top 10 or 15 is better, figured with some overalp 15 made sense.

Ill see later today or tomorrow how top 10 and top 15 looks basing it on single postion

Also keep iin mind we will have it based on 2 years so there are going to be guys this year who did not make cut last year regardless of how we base it. A guy like Jerami Grant who is expering is a great example, as barring injury/Covid or sudden drop in production he will cost full tag with the season he is putting up.

[Vik]

Updated proposal: We use top 10 per a position looking at last 2 season with no overlap (so we use spotrac for everything to determine primary postion)

Below is 15 with no overlap and still using only last season for now (so in this proposal guys 11-15 and beyond who are FA after this year are eligible for discount tag if they do not finish top 10 this year):

I am thinking this is the route to go if there is no objection, and would get 1 clean list including this season but of course things change daily so final list would be determined end of season. There are some outliers on both sides but with 2 seasons I am thinking things should balance out.


PG

Damian Lillard
Luka Doncic
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
Trae Young
Chris Paul
Kyle Lowry
Russell Westbrook
Devonte' Graham
Terry Rozier
Kemba Walker

11-15: Marcus Smart, Spencer Dinwiddie, Ben Simmons, Fred VanVleet, Jamal Murray


SG

James Harden
Zach LaVine
Bradley Beal
Jrue Holiday
CJ McCollum
Donovan Mitchell
Buddy Hield
Devin Booker
Evan Fournier
Terrence Ross

11-15:  Alec Burks, Dillon Brooks, Marcus Morris, Paul George, DeMar DeRozan


SF

LeBron James
Kawhi Leonard
Tobias Harris
Brandon Ingram
Kelly Oubre Jr.
Andrew Wiggins
Jimmy Butler
Will Barton
Khris Middleton
Davis Bertans

11-15: Miles Bridges, T.J. Warren, Jae Crowder, OG Anunoby, Harrison Barnes


PF

Jayson Tatum
Anthony Davis
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Robert Covington
Pascal Siakam
Bam Adebayo
LaMarcus Aldridge
Al Horford
Jaren Jackson
Aaron Gordon

11-15: Kevin Love, Nemanja Bjelica, Danilo Gallinari , Julius Randle, Domantas Sabonis

 
C

Nikola Jokic
Nikola Vucevic
Andre Drummond
Karl-Anthony Towns
Brook Lopez
Joel Embiid
Rudy Gobert
Myles Turner
Jonas Valanciunas
Hassan Whiteside

11-15:  Steven Adams, Jarrett Allen, Mitchell Robinson, Daniel Theis, Tristan Thompson

[WizKidFromSpace]

Last you guys will hear from me on the matter, I promise

I can't stress enough how much I hate this change.

I've been on record many times as stating that unhealthy contracts are what we should be aiming to avoid, not create more of; and this change does precisely that. I don't support franchise tags in general in this league because that's a contract mechanism not found in the NBA, but that's an argument for another day. Focusing specifically on this tag, it creates absurdly unhealthy contracts for players who experience large spikes in production in a short period of time (happens frequently). Domantas Sabonis and Julius Randle, for instance, would earn close to the full franchise tag yearly value if subjected to free agency, but instead their owners will be given the option to keep them for *four* years at around $10m less per year than their true value. That is unhealthy for the league plain and simple. I say this all as someone who would be incentivized to use this exact tag on Ben Simmons.

If the point of the league is to work with the salary cap to acquire production at reasonable cost, then why are we arbitrarily introducing mechanisms to circumvent the salary cap? Sounds like many would just prefer no cap at all from that angle. It could be that I joined this league for reasons different than many others, but I joined with the intent to manage a team within a league that most closely mirrors the circumstances of managing an actual NBA franchise. With that being my motivation for joining, there is no reason for me to support this change.

[Vik]

Last you guys will hear from me on the matter, I promise

I can't stress enough how much I hate this change.

I've been on record many times as stating that unhealthy contracts are what we should be aiming to avoid, not create more of; and this change does precisely that. I don't support franchise tags in general in this league because that's a contract mechanism not found in the NBA, but that's an argument for another day. Focusing specifically on this tag, it creates absurdly unhealthy contracts for players who experience large spikes in production in a short period of time (happens frequently). Domantas Sabonis and Julius Randle, for instance, would earn close to the full franchise tag yearly value if subjected to free agency, but instead their owners will be given the option to keep them for *four* years at around $10m less per year than their true value. That is unhealthy for the league plain and simple. I say this all as someone who would be incentivized to use this exact tag on Ben Simmons.

If the point of the league is to work with the salary cap to acquire production at reasonable cost, then why are we arbitrarily introducing mechanisms to circumvent the salary cap? Sounds like many would just prefer no cap at all from that angle. It could be that I joined this league for reasons different than many others, but I joined with the intent to manage a team within a league that most closely mirrors the circumstances of managing an actual NBA franchise. With that being my motivation for joining, there is no reason for me to support this change.

I always appreciate feedback so by all means we can keep discussion going. While I wanted to bring in this change it's not yet finalized and do see good points mentioned.

1 thing worth stressing is to keep in mind is the 2 year list will be used. Showing only last year for now given we don't know final ranks until end of season. For example, last year Simmons did not crack top 10 but this season when I checked last night out of curiosity think he was 11th PG up to date, so can easily crack top 10 this year. Randle/Sabonis also just missed top 10 las season, but this year are easy top 10 finish at PF barring games missed rest of the way. Both are at 20m for several years and they would only go up with regular tag if they were FA, so they would not get discounted. Factoring in the specific year a player hits FA plus the 2 year rank my thinking is this will not always create a lot of scenarios where a team even wants to use this 2nd tag. Even the current tag is not used as much. There are guys listed who are probably cheaper going after again in FA than using tag (of course we can never predict FA always interesting extremes of cheap vs overpayment). Mostly with this I figured no harm in giving 1 more option for team control.

Looking at my team, I will have no use for this tag come offseason. Gobert/Lillard/Mccollum already based on last year do not qualify. Jermai Grant is crazy bargain this year but unfortunately for me he would require full tag as well based on current production (of course thing can change if he falls of or misses time but I'm assuming he finishes top 10 easily).

A quick check of expiring guys this year, here are some of the mid tier players who might be eligible for this 2nd tag come offseason. Probably a few others but it seems they are solid players who may still not even be worth the tier 2 tag or they are looking at right around market value so not much of a bargain contract for any of them. I guess Ben Simmons is really the big outlier and no guarantee he makes the cut plus PG even at half is still most expensive.

Ben Simmons
Draymond Green
Enes Kanter
Alec Burks
Caris LeVert
Jordan Clarkson
DeAndre Jordan
Joe Ingles

Also I believe we have 18/20 committed owners right now (1 open and 1 iffy) so last thing I want to do is any change where we lose ownership. It is easier to do nothing but just thought a 2nd tag for team control might be something more preferred but understand there is always objection to any potential change. This is also not the most drastic change in my opinion so end of day if we don't go with it I am totally fine.