ProFSL: Pro Fantasy Sports Leagues
ProFSL Front Office => Franchise NHL: Transactions => Franchise NHL => NHL DYNASTY GM HOME => Franchise NHL: Completed Transactions => Topic started by: PigsRule on August 31, 2012, 03:46:21 PM
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in an effort to evolve FNHL and to improve competitive play... hockeyfreak47 + I present this rule revision for league review, discussion and input.
how FNHL uses Goalies and the scarcity of goalies significantly impacts how we play in this league. with 30-FNHL teams, less than 30 true starting goalies in the NHL AND the use of 2-starting active goalies in FNHL, there was going to be an issue with goalie availability, goalie scoring, goalie contract values, goalie trade value. it is also a barrier to recruiting strong GMs who may believe a team without a goalie is destined to fail.
below - we present a phased approach to revise the goalie situation in FNHL without creating a devaluation nor decreasing their importance overnight (avoids fixing 1 issue to create other issues).
PROPOSED RULE REVISIONS (Effective Date):
1. change to 1 starting active goalie ... currently start 2 (target revision starting 2013-14)
2. set 3 goalie limit per team ... currently no limit (target revision starting 2013-14)
3. set 2 goalie limit per team ... 1 less than proposed 3 for 2013-14 (target revision starting 2014-15)
4. cap goalie salaries per team at 10.0m (target revision starting 2014-15)
5. reduce goalie point scoring system by 20-25% ... TBD which goalie stats impacted (target revision starting 2014-15)
PROPOSED EFFECTIVE DATE:
* various betw 2013-14 and 2014-15
REQUIRED:
(1) league discussion for 1-month / 30-days
(2) no urgent implementation to ensure goalie valuation + league scoring is stable
(3) majority "yes" vote to follow 30-day discussion /vetting period (each team to post reply in a dedicated New Rule Voting thread to be created after the 30-day discussion period.
post your thoughts!
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if you limited to 1 active goalie and reduced the goalie scoring so that the top goalie scored similar to the top skater. everything else would take care of itself.
i personally dont like the capping of total goalies or salary spent on goalies.
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If you were to do anything it would have to be set in stone and only be enforced after 2015-16 as many have signed goalies long long term due to the important of goalies in our league.
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You could institute it quicker if you gave everyone the option to drop their goalies with no cap hit. They could then re-bid them in FA at a more realistic market value.
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if you limited to 1 active goalie and reduced the goalie scoring so that the top goalie scored similar to the top skater. everything else would take care of itself.
i personally dont like the capping of total goalies or salary spent on goalies.
I agree
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in an effort to evolve FNHL and to improve competitive play... hockeyfreak47 + I present this rule revision for league review, discussion and input.
how FNHL uses Goalies and the scarcity of goalies significantly impacts how we play in this league. with 30-FNHL teams, less than 30 true starting goalies in the NHL AND the use of 2-starting active goalies in FNHL, there was going to be an issue with goalie availability, goalie scoring, goalie contract values, goalie trade value. it is also a barrier to recruiting strong GMs who may believe a team without a goalie is destined to fail.
below - we present a phased approach to revise the goalie situation in FNHL without creating a devaluation nor decreasing their importance overnight (avoids fixing 1 issue to create other issues).
PROPOSED RULE REVISIONS (Effective Date):
1. change to 1 starting active goalie ... currently start 2 (target revision starting 2013-14)
2. set 3 goalie limit per team ... currently no limit (target revision starting 2013-14)
3. set 2 goalie limit per team ... 1 less than proposed 3 for 2013-14 (target revision starting 2014-15)
4. cap goalie salaries per team at 10.0m (target revision starting 2014-15)
5. reduce goalie point scoring system by 20-25% ... TBD which goalie stats impacted (target revision starting 2014-15)
PROPOSED EFFECTIVE DATE:
* various betw 2013-14 and 2014-15
REQUIRED:
(1) league discussion for 1-month / 30-days
(2) no urgent implementation to ensure goalie valuation + league scoring is stable
(3) majority "yes" vote to follow 30-day discussion /vetting period (each team to post reply in a dedicated New Rule Voting thread to be created after the 30-day discussion period.
post your thoughts!
:iatp:
With 1/3 of the teams having no starter we need something to keep all GM's in FNHL and stop the in and out of new ones . i feel this is a big step in this direction :thumbsup:
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I'm not a fan of changes.
Firstly, it acts as if managers cant be trusted to set their teams up.
Secondly, the goalies need to be worth more because there are less of them than the skaters, but goalies are arguably the most important.
Third, two starting goalies requires a larger goalie pool and more research by the owner. This isn't a bad thing.
Lastly, any attempt to price set by the administration will only create a maleficency in the market. Also, what if multiple teams bid 10m? What fair way is there to legislate this issue?
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I like these ideas
1. change to 1 starting active goalie ... currently start 2 (target revision starting 2013-14)
2. set 3 goalie limit per team ... currently no limit (target revision starting 2013-14)
I am not for these
3. set 2 goalie limit per team ... 1 less than proposed 3 for 2013-14 (target revision starting 2014-15)
4. cap goalie salaries per team at 10.0m (target revision starting 2014-15)
5. reduce goalie point scoring system by 20-25% ... TBD which goalie stats impacted (target revision starting 2014-15)
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I like the idea of using 1 starting goalie. A reduction in goalie points scoring would also help level the playing field because they currently outscore top forwards 3:1. The current setup works in a 12-16 team league but definitely not a 30 team league.
A new idea would be to use a duplicate set of goalies since it is such a scarce position in this league. You could just set the contract of the second set the same as the first and as contracts expire let the market dictate their new value.
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I like the 1 starter idea, myself
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If you were to do anything it would have to be set in stone and only be enforced after 2015-16 as many have signed goalies long long term due to the important of goalies in our league.
this is fantasy hky, rare to push changes out 2seasons, let alone 1wk in FNHL.
waiting 1 season is the longest anyone has ever waited to make a rule change in this league.
the goalie situation in FNHL is detrimental to the league's ability to survive. who want to linger in the bottom half of the league when they don't own a goalie or 4.
the initial league setup didn't foresee the hoarding issue, not the scarcity issue.
drew, you noticed it in Rebel and setup a league with a cap on the 2nd/backup goalie of max 2m salary. you also noticed the signup rate wasnt as strong as anticipated and trimmed the team count from 30-teams to 24 overnight. you did so to ensure competitive play.
same needs to happen in FNHL.
it's not going to win every GM over, but it will ensure this league is strong and has the ability to recruit strong GM's that want to stay + compete. isn't that the pt of these advanced Profsl leagues?
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I'm not a fan of changes.
fair enough... let's review your reasons.
Firstly, it acts as if managers cant be trusted to set their teams up.
ideally yes, in paid leagues - 95% yes. in leagues where there's been 100% background checks + true sign-up requirements (like Backyard NHL) - 90% yes. in a free league where entry wasn't all that stringent in the past, unfortunately no, not everyone can be counted on - 99% of present FNHL owners excluded.
Secondly, the goalies need to be worth more because there are less of them than the skaters, but goalies are arguably the most important.
agreed, but without enough goalies to go around a league that starts 2 goalies + with goalies out-scoring skaters X3, it's not realistic to continue playing that way over the long haul. the league was already in trouble after yr 1 from all the archived posts i read.
in month 2 of FNHL (Nov 2010), drew was already asking why 50% of the league was inactive. only 7 ppl replied to the check-in thread, and that included the commish, drew, tony, colby, corey, hf6k, bap28. yikes!
Third, two starting goalies requires a larger goalie pool and more research by the owner. This isn't a bad thing.
i like that idea in principle, but the scarcity of goalies means ppl are only researching to find goalies to contribute 3-4 yrs out.
Q: who's even been in this league for 3yrs from the original sign-ups?
Q: how many times have the commissioners gone missing or suddenly resigned out of the blue, X2 in 2yrs. so assuming regular owners will commit for more than 1 yr when commissioner's haven't been able to commit is really asking a lot of ppl, no?!
asking new owners to take on a team without a goalie is futile, especially without a proper plan to level the playing field in FNHL.
Lastly, any attempt to price set by the administration will only create a maleficency in the market. Also, what if multiple teams bid 10m? What fair way is there to legislate this issue?
it's a tough call to have to make but a commissioner of league would not be doing their job if they don't address serious issues that impact competitive play and ability of a league to survive + thrive long-term.
the current goalie issues in FNHL create a serious divide betw the "Haves" and the "Have NOTS." fewer than 40% of the teams in FNHL own a true starting goalie. as hockeyfreak47 pointed out, 1/3 don't even have an active NHL goalie.
yet goalies yield the highest points in the current scoring system?
and it's a free league where ppl come and go if they get fed up, too busy, bored or rebuilding, etc.
it's a formula for failure or at least setting up the league to wallow in survival mode constantly.
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The fairest way I believe would be to take all goalie out after 2012-13 season and have a re-draft with current salaries then. 2 round goalie draft (prospects excluded) then the fault would be on the GM to get a goalie that will contribute either now or in the future based on their team.
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I like the idea of starting 1 goalie, but I think that should be the only thing changed.
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LOL this league is becoming comical. Redraft the goalies? Why not just start the league over, brand new?
Well it sounds like no matter what it said something is happening with goalies. I along with others who have goalies signed in the 8m plus range don't want that if we are only starting 1 goalie or reducing their impact.
And it was just a suggestion, no need to banter over it.
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redraft the goalies is an interesting idea but I think you would have to let the teams keep their best goalie. the teams that dont keep one would draft first, worst record first and the players current contract stays with him.
What ever we do to fix this problem is going to create an issue for some team so this will be tricky to fix.
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Do it like a band-aid. Joeshmoe - the current setup on goalies is what is comical. its a growing pain but it needs to be done.
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Well it sounds like no matter what it said something is happening with goalies. I along with others who have goalies signed in the 8m plus range don't want that if we are only starting 1 goalie or reducing their impact.
And it was just a suggestion, no need to banter over it.
Maybe reduce it to 1 starting goalie, and then a 50% reduction in salary on your backup goalie?
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My formal proposal.
Effective immediately - 1 active goalie on the roster.
Reason- We are a league that pride ourselves on mimicking the NHL, what NHL team has two goalies in net at the same time. NHL teams have to choose every night who they play is it Quick or Bernier.
Starting in 2013-2014 - Before free agency all teams have a one time option of dropping a goalie with no cap hit. This gives teams that have grossly salary inflated goalies on their roster a chance to drop them without receiving a penalty, this counteracts the drop in goalie value. Those teams would have a chance to re-sign them in FA at a lower cost and more in line with the future goalie values.
Alternate option: Teams all have the opportunity to extend their goaltenders with the new contract set to take effect immediately regardless of the number of years left on the contract. It's basically a goalie reset without really removing anyone from teams rosters. I am not as big on this option since it gives teams that bid ridiculous contracts on goalie to have their cake and eat it too. By making them drop them and bid on a open market seems to be the more fair root to everyone since the high priced goalies were acquired on the open market in the first place.
Also starting in 2013 season a 10% reduction in goalie stats , with successive 10% reductions in the following 3 years.
Reason: This will bring the leagues top goalie points in line with the leagues top skaters points. No one can tell me that Fleury is more important than Crosby or Malkin to his team, to mimic the NHL we need to bring goalie points to a more realistic value.
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redraft the goalies is an interesting idea but I think you would have to let the teams keep their best goalie. the teams that dont keep one would draft first, worst record first and the players current contract stays with him.
drew's redraft idea is an interesting option.
as with any option, there are pitfalls. jmtrops' suggestion on how to implement could work. there's the question of when to implement 2013 off-season? and how best to implement: in a re-draft not sure any team gets to keep a goalie which then causes an immediate devaluation of goalies for teams that own them.
What ever we do to fix this problem is going to create an issue for some team so this will be tricky to fix.
couldn't agree more with your comment there, jmtrops!
i think snugerud said it best, treat it like a band-aid removal ... make it quick!
like i said, hockeyfreak47 and i are not popular for making this proposal but in the long-run FNHL will be around and stronger for addressing the issue sooner than later.
personally, i'm here to have a good time and enjoy... "being liked" is secondary if a consideration at all. ;)
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Maybe reduce it to 1 starting goalie, ...
the 1 active goalie option appears to be a leading candidate for rule revision in 2013-14.
gocubsgo7, can you clarify / give an example of what you mean when you say a ... and then a 50% reduction in salary on your backup goalie?
...not sure i follow. thx!
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My formal proposal.
Effective immediately - 1 active goalie on the roster.
Reason- We are a league that pride ourselves on mimicking the NHL, what NHL team has two goalies in net at the same time. NHL teams have to choose every night who they play is it Quick or Bernier.
disagree with any effective immediately rules. even though the goalie situation is not favorable - the league can be played as is short-term. the goalie situation was the result of the rules in place BUT also the lack of quality team owners (ones who cared not to trade away their starting goalie for a bag o'pucks, then ditch their team after a few months).
on that note, as you know snugerud... FNHL recruiting is more selective this season and i hope it will continue to be moving forward to ensure knowledgeable owners and ones with sufficient time to play fantasy hky commit to the league.
Starting in 2013-2014 - Before free agency all teams have a one time option of dropping a goalie with no cap hit. This gives teams that have grossly salary inflated goalies on their roster a chance to drop them without receiving a penalty, this counteracts the drop in goalie value. Those teams would have a chance to re-sign them in FA at a lower cost and more in line with the future goalie values.
i'd love to hear more ppl comment on this goalie amnesty option. it's got legs! :toast:
also, we have time to flesh this idea out to determine if we move fwd, the exact mechanics of how to implement from start to finish. remember, we cannot devalue goalies overnight otherwise the time and effort invested by those who have cared to do so isn't swept aside and forgotten. we need to try to find a good balance of change vs stability... easier said then done. :toth:
Alternate option: Teams all have the opportunity to extend their goaltenders with the new contract set to take effect immediately regardless of the number of years left on the contract. It's basically a goalie reset without really removing anyone from teams rosters. I am not as big on this option since it gives teams that bid ridiculous contracts on goalie to have their cake and eat it too. By making them drop them and bid on a open market seems to be the more fair root to everyone since the high priced goalies were acquired on the open market in the first place.
personally not a fan of this either. but still good to get new ideas flowing. :toast:
Also starting in 2013 season a 10% reduction in goalie stats , with successive 10% reductions in the following 3 years.
Reason: This will bring the leagues top goalie points in line with the leagues top skaters points. No one can tell me that Fleury is more important than Crosby or Malkin to his team, to mimic the NHL we need to bring goalie points to a more realistic value.
agreed.
i personally believe a revision to goalie scoring needs to happen to get them more in line with overall league scoring system. you can play with 4 starting goalies and 0 Centers + 0 LW and still make the post-season because points are so heavily weighted on goalie stats scoring.
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If you want to limit starting goalies to one, its understandable, because that is league like. 2 goalies was implemented so teams could start the two goalies they had without having to find out the starter from the real nhl team every single night. It didn't work.
But to cap the amount that can be spent on goalies is foolish. If you want to create a maleficence in the market, that is exactly what you will do.
If two teams bid at the same dollar cap, who wins? Am I to believe that some arbitrator can possibly be unbiased and make an honest decision? Outrageous! Am I instead to think that the winner will be determined by some calculations of standings or points or etc? How insane! It changes the league completely. Instead of teams trying to win they will be trying to position themselves for players. Yuck.
Please leave caps of contracts, and all these multiple-calculation objectives out. It makes this league less fun and more work.
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As I said about re-drafting before, how gross.
It rips apart what teams have done and is force by the administration. People should be able to maybe enter into the re-draft system or not. Because I am not going to take my chances I get a Tukka Rask back. Who would get to go first and who last? That cannot be decided fairly.
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Also note, bringing it down to one starter really puts the screws to contracts like Ben Bishop, Craig Anderson, etc. That is why these rule changes really need to be done now and stay that way, for a while. This league has been a stream of rule changes.
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If you want to limit starting goalies to one, its understandable, because that is league like. 2 goalies was implemented so teams could start the two goalies they had without having to find out the starter from the real nhl team every single night. It didn't work.
I see this as an advanced league and having to find out who the starting goalie is not that big of deal. http://www.leftwinglock.com/starting-goalies/ (http://www.leftwinglock.com/starting-goalies/) if you have a starting goalie, most nights your going to role with them, backups are a little more work.
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Also starting in 2013 season a 10% reduction in goalie stats , with successive 10% reductions in the following 3 years.
Reason: This will bring the leagues top goalie points in line with the leagues top skaters points. No one can tell me that Fleury is more important than Crosby or Malkin to his team, to mimic the NHL we need to bring goalie points to a more realistic value.
agreed.
i personally believe a revision to goalie scoring needs to happen to get them more in line with overall league scoring system. you can play with 4 starting goalies and 0 Centers + 0 LW and still make the post-season because points are so heavily weighted on goalie stats scoring.
Here is an alternate idea. Since we are already devaluing goalies by the 1 starter why not instead of continuing to devalue goalies and further hurting the teams that have them , we increase the value of skater (D's and F's) to close some of the gap on the goalies. Instead of hurting the teams with goalies , it would help the teams with none to be more competitive. It would also bring the value up on D to bring them more inline with their contracts which is already being discussed as well so you are killing 2 birds with 1 stone.
I am proposing a initial 25% increase to all skater stats and the addition of a blocked shots stat counted at the same value as hits.
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Also note, bringing it down to one starter really puts the screws to contracts like Ben Bishop, Craig Anderson, etc. That is why these rule changes really need to be done now and stay that way, for a while. This league has been a stream of rule changes.
i know you hate to see others touch your original vision of the league... but let me say i'm here this yr to clarify rules that are unclear, seriously lacking or harmful the the league's ability to survive.
examples of needed rule changes... see COMMISSIONER'S CORNER but here's a taste:
1. Goalie setup + scoring: didn't factor in hoarding, mis-management
2. Cap league with no penalty for below or over cap after 2 full seasons
3. Unclear contract terms that cause confusion for 3 ex-commissioners (hf6k, gilly, sizzrat) + 1 roving commish (drew) ... includes 1yr contracts, variable contracts, extensions on 1yr deals, etc.
* leaving these issues unaddressed hurts/has hurt the league.
* addressing them is like teething, it's a beach but you're better for it afterwards.
and no, not everything can be handled like a band-aid... we have to respect those who've put in 2 full seasons as well as juggle needs of new active owners.
see it as "glass half-full" chris... not the other way. :thumbsup:
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I see this as an advanced league and having to find out who the starting goalie is not that big of deal. http://www.leftwinglock.com/starting-goalies/ (http://www.leftwinglock.com/starting-goalies/) if you have a starting goalie, most nights your going to role with them, backups are a little more work.
haha, good stuff. i use http://www.dailyfaceoff.com/starting-goalies/
much more relevant in smaller leagues that start 2 goalies with daily line-ups like my CHL 42 team tiered league.
Here is an alternate idea. Since we are already devaluing goalies by the 1 starter why not instead of continuing to devalue goalies and further hurting the teams that have them , we increase the value of skater (D's and F's) to close some of the gap on the goalies. Instead of hurting the teams with goalies , it would help the teams with none to be more competitive. It would also bring the value up on D to bring them more inline with their contracts which is already being discussed as well so you are killing 2 birds with 1 stone.
I am proposing a initial 25% increase to all skater stats and the addition of a blocked shots stat counted at the same value as hits.
if i'm not mistaken, that's the other side of the same coin. same idea just change the skaters instead of the goalies. it's good food for thought for sure.
i personlly love using blocked shots, makes the defensive defensemen + 2-way fwds/plumbers more relevant in scoring.
of course from an administrative perspective the considerations are:
a) changing a set of scoring values (looks like it's gotta be done either way)
b) scoring impacts contract values too, now we're touching 3 positions vs 1 ... and contracts are already a can o' worms.
c) by touching skaters, we might now cause another negative impacts downstream that haven't been anticipated (butterfly effect).
on the positive side, it means less revisions to goalies as ppl may not want too many changes to goalie setup + scoring.
great to get new ideas to tackle this matter. thx snug!
let's see more input on this idea from snug! :toast:
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just a side, you can alter values of scoring in Fantrax and run tests to see how they turn out which will help reduce some of this butterfly effect.
It is same coin different side but with a big difference. Not everyone in the league has a starting goalie so by reducing the goalie stats you are only affecting those with a starting goalie and in a negative way.
By up ticking the skaters this will affect everyone's team typically in a positive way, some more than others but in probably a less dramatic sense.
I am just kicking around ideas out loud. Anybody can feel free to jump in
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Bro weren't you the original commissioner. When was this league weekly line-ups. So what is it weekly or daily line-ups.
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Did you just call me a communist?,,,,yup pretty sure he just called me a communist. ha ha ha ha. :rofl:
there are 2 sometime 3 days a week that the nhl would have a full enough schedule that you may have to make a choice between goalies. If you are on dial up it might take you 5 mins to check one of those sites and adjust your goalie for the night so a total of 15 mins in a week, on dial up.
Signed,
Your Supreme Leader , Admiral Aladin
(http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4686681914083014&id=1b74a14ca83fd3d357ef7cc1afeef166)
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Bro weren't you the original commissioner. When was this league weekly line-ups. So what is it weekly or daily line-ups.
I think you've missed it. There were daily lineups, but with fantrax you can set it up for the week and push play! Simple, not a lot of work, and helpful to gms who don't have all day for profsl. Miss something? How this has to do with orig commish i dont know.
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Did you just call me a communist?,,,,yup pretty sure he just called me a communist. ha ha ha ha. :rofl:
there are 2 sometime 3 days a week that the nhl would have a full enough schedule that you may have to make a choice between goalies. If you are on dial up it might take you 5 mins to check one of those sites and adjust your goalie for the night so a total of 15 mins in a week, on dial up.
Signed,
Your Supreme Leader , Admiral Aladin
(http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4686681914083014&id=1b74a14ca83fd3d357ef7cc1afeef166)
Maybe you should brush up on your comprehension because I said I was not a communist, and that not everyone could be. And that's absolutely true...even though 49% of the US is on welfare, the 51% still need to work really hard not to tick it over the top...which austrian economists know is the no turning back point. ERGO I don't have every 10 minutes to check on profsl, or every night, to see if some nhl coach changed his lineup. It's foolish. And you make it seem as if that never happens...please. It happens frequently enough it was included in the original set of rules.
Lastly, I said 1 goalie was probably a fine idea...but realize that it will automatically make x amount of teams ineligible to win...this league is only winnable by the very most active gms (or a gm who can help the commish not step on his toes and when he doesn't his teams gets shanked) and that takes away from a fun league. This isn't a pay league.
sept8-12: post cleaned of inappropriate comments. keep it professional ppl.
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The fairest way I believe would be to take all goalie out after 2012-13 season and have a re-draft with current salaries then. 2 round goalie draft (prospects excluded) then the fault would be on the GM to get a goalie that will contribute either now or in the future based on their team.
As much as I like this re-draft idea I don't think it works well at all in a contract dynasty league. It would be perfect in a regular keeper league.
Like I said I'm all for going with 1 starter. You don't want to over adjust without seeing how your first change alters league play.
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4. cap goalie salaries per team at 10.0m (target revision starting 2014-15)
With most of you agreeing on the 1 starter rule i don't understand why the $10.0m cap rule is that much contested.
Here's my point of view :
The extension price for the best goalie in FNHL is $6.4m. So $10.0m is more than enough for each team to get a starter for a more balance and competitive league.
those who have more than 1 starter will be able to keep their best goalie and trade the other's and get great value for them .
this way we should not see any strating goalie in FA and no 10m bid .
the only way to get 2 starter will be if one of your prospect becomes one.
i see only 1 problem it's big contracts expiring 2014-15 and after.
this could be solved by ending all those contracts for 2013-14.
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this thread has been cleaned + off-topic posts moved to the invalid transactions section.
let's stay on topic here ppl.
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Pigsrule, my language is not offensive. Communist is not a dirty word. I am a political philosophy major and I read books all day long on this stuff. It's quite fine to draw parallels between real life economics and this league.
Please do not infringe upon my right to free speech.
The problem is that it artificially caps what a manager can do. If a manager wants to spend big on goalies they should be able to. If we cap the money spent on goalies it merely means there will be more ridiculous contracts for other players. It shifts the problem. If you let people do what they want it makes it REAL...please please read a very small book, Economics in one easy lesson by the great Austrian Economist Henry Hazlitt...it is all explained very clearly that administrative price setting ALWAYS leads to inefficiency in the market place. This would be the worst thing we could do to this league is start capping how much can be spent where.
Am I typing in french?
I do see your point on this and you are right when you say ( If we cap the money spent on goalies it merely means there will be more ridiculous contracts for other players. ) but the problem is not paying big money for players it's team not having any starter . with no cap on goalie we will still have the same problem as 50 % of the league could end up with 2 starter .
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I do see your point on this and you are right when you say ( If we cap the money spent on goalies it merely means there will be more ridiculous contracts for other players. ) but the problem is not paying big money for players it's team not having any starter . with no cap on goalie we will still have the same problem as 50 % of the league could end up with 2 starter .
If you cap the amount paid on goalies (this is not an argument against 1 goalie...I think that's okay) it will INCREASE the problem, if the problem truly is that teams don't have starters. Let me explain. The price of goalies will go down, which means teams will have money to spend on more goalies. If the price was increased (ie. due to natural market demands[supply vs demand]) then teams would have less to spend on goalie #2 and Goalie #3 meaning there the demand goes down, and price goes down, and more teams may afford goalies.
I also don't think that teams need babying by the rules to make sure they have starters....some real NHL teams don't have real starters either!! You have to make your decisions about spending somewhere.
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My opinion.... Joeshmoe should start his own league, brand new from scratch so he can write his own rules, the way HE wants them!
Reading all the posts on this league, it seems like joeshmoe has a problem or disagreement or opinion on almost all of the topics and rules and rulings on here.
Not sure if he's just bitter about his team being screwed over and losing Marchand and Bishop, or if he has a chip on his shoulder against one or more people or commish's in this league, but is sure seems like he's one unhappy bugger!
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To make these drastic changes is a horrible idea.
Teams made moves because of starting 2 goalies and they points they acquire.
Roster positions and scoring are the two things in leagues that you should not mess with. It would be extremely disappointing if these changed, and a big mistake.
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My opinion.... Joeshmoe should start his own league, brand new from scratch so he can write his own rules, the way HE wants them!
Reading all the posts on this league, it seems like joeshmoe has a problem or disagreement or opinion on almost all of the topics and rules and rulings on here.
Not sure if he's just bitter about his team being screwed over and losing Marchand and Bishop, or if he has a chip on his shoulder against one or more people or commish's in this league, but is sure seems like he's one unhappy bugger!
Your opinion is well noted. I am opinionated because I have opinions, which is of no real issue. I disagree with a lot of changes, absolutely. I am sour about the prospect thing, but this has nothing to do with any of my opinions on rules. That comes from my understanding of the universe.
Furthermore, I was 'screwed over' because I didn't offer my opinion. Had I done so the issue would have been illuminated. Therefore, I feel I should offer an opinion on all issues that I have an opinion for.
But this is a forum for goalies talk...
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Your opinion is well noted. I am opinionated because I have opinions, which is of no real issue. I disagree with a lot of changes, absolutely. I am sour about the prospect thing, but this has nothing to do with any of my opinions on rules. That comes from my understanding of the universe.
Furthermore, I was 'screwed over' because I didn't offer my opinion. Had I done so the issue would have been illuminated. Therefore, I feel I should offer an opinion on all issues that I have an opinion for.
But this is a forum for goalies talk...
Seems like you should get in cahoots with PigsRule and be co-commish's or something and/or take over from him - seems he doesn't want to do this past this year and you have plenty of inputs and ideas.
But I mean it's a free league so who really cares that much about a bunch of small technicalities and stuff. If we all had $100 invested then yeah, they should all be changed or put in place, but in a free league who really gives a **** about stupid little matters!
It's a 30-team league, we won't all have tons star players, and most of us will suck. It's reality. But it's also free, so you shouldn't sweat over it! Just have fun with whatever team you've got. I know my team sucks a$$ but whatever, haha. Maybe by the time Kuznetsov is in the NHL my team will compete!
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If you cap the amount paid on goalies (this is not an argument against 1 goalie...I think that's okay) it will INCREASE the problem, if the problem truly is that teams don't have starters. Let me explain. The price of goalies will go down, which means teams will have money to spend on more goalies. If the price was increased (ie. due to natural market demands[supply vs demand]) then teams would have less to spend on goalie #2 and Goalie #3 meaning there the demand goes down, and price goes down, and more teams may afford goalies.
I also don't think that teams need babying by the rules to make sure they have starters....some real NHL teams don't have real starters either!! You have to make your decisions about spending somewhere.
I never went to University and I haven't read your economics book but...
This explanation only works if all goalies prices are set in a fair and open market, ie all goalies go to unrestricted free agency. We already have an artificially set cap on goalies set by the extension rules.
if all goalies went to ufa, i agree the market would dictate their price in such a way that teams would not be able to afford to keep 2 or 3 starting goalies year after year because teams would drive up the prices, but the league uses extensions which sees goalies prices set at a max of 6.8 million per year for the top goalie and declining. You will never see 98% of the goalies on the teams now ever reach FA since it is far more economical to continue extending them.
Why does this remind me of the movie Good Will Hunting2 Hunting Season? apple sauce
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnESedN4vSI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnESedN4vSI)
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i will say, joe might be onto something. Rather than go through adjusting scoring and roster spots, what if we just got rid of the extensions for goalies. Than the market will set itself teams wouldnt be able to afford to have 2 10 mill goalies on their roster. Teams would still have equal opportunity to resign their goalie but it would need to be willing to pay the fair market value.
Food for though
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Seems like you should get in cahoots with PigsRule and be co-commish's or something and/or take over from him - seems he doesn't want to do this past this year and you have plenty of inputs and ideas.
But I mean it's a free league so who really cares that much about a bunch of small technicalities and stuff. If we all had $100 invested then yeah, they should all be changed or put in place, but in a free league who really gives a **** about stupid little matters!
It's a 30-team league, we won't all have tons star players, and most of us will suck. It's reality. But it's also free, so you shouldn't sweat over it! Just have fun with whatever team you've got. I know my team sucks a$$ but whatever, haha. Maybe by the time Kuznetsov is in the NHL my team will compete!
Unfortunately getting to run this league again was politics and I've played principles too long to now play politics with the right people to have gotten rehired as commissioner. That being said FNHL 2 is in the works as we speak.
And just because this is a free league doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to achieve the best and most fun and competitive situation possible. Personally for me, competitive is fun. How do you stay competitive? You strive to protect parody in the league, I think.
And finally I think what we need is a consistent set of rules we roll with for a while. Lets eliminate the loopholes, call it good and move forward. Then we can see what might naturally occur in this league.
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i will say, joe might be onto something. Rather than go through adjusting scoring and roster spots, what if we just got rid of the extensions for goalies. Than the market will set itself teams wouldnt be able to afford to have 2 10 mill goalies on their roster. Teams would still have equal opportunity to resign their goalie but it would need to be willing to pay the fair market value.
Food for though
In regards to both posts at once. We definitely have to address extension values. It is skewed somehow. Either we:
a) use the nhl formula for cap: which will be determined and we could follow. If we maintain extension values equal to the real NHL. Ie the best player in the NHL gets XYZ amount for an extension, so we demand that the best player in FNHL gets XYZ amount. The exact same values, at least we are on par with the product that does work (when was the last NHL dynasty?).
b) we assign contract extensions equal to our highest paid players. If a ten million dollar fa contract goes to a goalie, then the extension for the goalies should shift accordingly?
c) no goalie extensions...it works, but is it real?
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i will say, joe might be onto something. Rather than go through adjusting scoring and roster spots, what if we just got rid of the extensions for goalies. Than the market will set itself teams wouldnt be able to afford to have 2 10 mill goalies on their roster. Teams would still have equal opportunity to resign their goalie but it would need to be willing to pay the fair market value.
Food for though
BTW I kinda like this and kinda dont. I like how easy it is. I just don't like its implications. I also love FGM and it seems to work great how they do it there.
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So you guys think having different rules for one set of players makes sense? How? Special set of extension rules only for goalies? Never seen it and just adds confusion and fails to tackle the issue.
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So you guys think having different rules for one set of players makes sense? How? Special set of extension rules only for goalies? Never seen it and just adds confusion and fails to tackle the issue.
Not saying that is what I want but kicking around ideas that might work that would be simple and easy to implement. There has always been different rules for different players even now to extend goalies its cost different than forwards, they score different.
I have actually always been a fan of putting all players into one extension table instead of breaking them into positions for multiple reasons.
1) That way the top player is always getting top dollar and you dont have to worry about the gaps between forward and d scoring because everyone falls into their respective scoring place
2) commissioners you never need to worry about did I level the scoring properly between positions.
3) less time sorting through table and extensions for the GM's its a simple where did they rank.
4) For commissioners its easier to make the adjustments to players extension costs if adjusting cap ceiling/basement.
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I have one more suggestion to rectify the issues here.
Since Goalies score 50% more than forwards and by example of their contracts in Free Agency their extension prices should be doubled from the current amount.
I know people are saying woaa thats crazy but considering Bryz got a 13 mill a year contract , not really. It makes extensions a much harder choice going forward for the GM's it would bring the level of extensions to a similar level of the free agent market and by the extra costs it would stop the hoarding of goalies that you would see a more even dispersal of talent.
This method doesn't involve any changes to the current rules or creation any new rules (which could also bring with them negative effects) just an updating of the extension prices to reflect goalies worth to a team in FNHL so instead of working against the monster contracts we are working with them. With a increase to goalie cost you will also see a resurgence of a better Free Agent class since there will be less money to throw around.
(as an added, guys if your going to comment negatively than follow it with your version of a solution. Its great to point out problems but what we need are a solutions)
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I agree with Corey, these drastic changes are no good. This is a DYNASTY league. Capping salary and cutting extensions negates the whole idea. Very rarely on this whole site do you inherit a team ready to compete, and it sucks when previous owners make bad moves, but it is what it is. Do your research, draft well, don't just change rules to appease half the league. Just my opinion, either way I'm still gonna beat all your butts :P
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I agree with Corey, these drastic changes are no good. This is a DYNASTY league. Capping salary and cutting extensions negates the whole idea. Very rarely on this whole site do you inherit a team ready to compete, and it sucks when previous owners make bad moves, but it is what it is. Do your research, draft well, don't just change rules to appease half the league. Just my opinion, ...
i definitely hear what u and the corey are saying.
because it's a dynasty league, the problems of un-owned + inactive teams not competing for player resources has been compounded after 2yrs.
in another yr or 2 this league is history if changes aren't gradually discussed and implemented starting nxt season. why? teams get tired of steamrolling un-owned teams or active teams clearly disadvantaged by 0 starting goalie or owning 1 backup nhl'er in a pool that starts 2 goalies nightly.
hey, i own 4 goalies... my :FLO: are clearly gonna compete and finish top 5 this season but what's the value of victory yr after yr if the league remains so unbalanced. it's almost too easy don't u think, even for a fun/free league.
either way I'm still gonna beat all your butts :P
not into receiving.
i only dish it. :P
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Adjusting active goalies from two to one in enough. Having active GM's is more important.
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hey, i own 4 goalies...
Yes but only 1 is a starter so changing to 1 starter drastically improves your chances.
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Yes but only 1 is a starter so changing to 1 starter drastically improves your chances.
i think u forgot to add the [sarcastic] notation.
yes n no, still better to have more starter slots avail. with 1 starter, u get bottlenecked and can't optimize your ability to earn goalie points. :(
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Whats the ruling on this?
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Whats the ruling on this?
:iatp:
Lots of talk, nothing seems to be determined...
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Whats the ruling on this?
:iatp:
Lots of talk, nothing seems to be determined...
this is the discussion phase... open for comments for 30-days.
then we vote on the most requested version of the rule which appears to be trimming down from 2-to-1 active goalies (refer to the original post).
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this is the discussion phase... open for comments for 30-days.
then we vote on the most requested version of the rule which appears to be trimming down from 2-to-1 active goalies (refer to the original post).
This changes the entire landscape of the league completely.
This is not a good change at all.
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This changes the entire landscape of the league completely.
This is not a good change at all.
Absolutely. But I guess goalies are too strong?
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This changes the entire landscape of the league completely.
This is not a good change at all.
This doesn't mean you can't have 2 or 3 starting goalies - You can just only start one per night... So you could still have Lundqvist and Rinne, but if they play on the same night you would have to choose who to start on that night.
....hmm, wait - is this league daily lineup changes or weekly? If it's weekly, then that kind of changes things, haha.
Either way, in a 30-team league, 1 active goalie per night seems like it should be a given. Not every NHL team has a #1 goalie... So if there are even 5 teams in here with 2 starters on their roster, that means maybe 5-10 teams are without a legit goalie to start each night!
Sure, this might make FA spending on goalies go insane, but I would imagine no one would let go of a starting goalie and just re-sign them... Or, go thru the trade market to acquire a goalie, which obviously they'd have to pay for but would make for some awesome trades and trade talks!
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everyone's entitled to post their opinion.
it is a message board afterall.
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the 1 active goalie option appears to be a leading candidate for rule revision in 2013-14.
gocubsgo7, can you clarify / give an example of what you mean when you say a
...not sure i follow. thx!
This got lost in all of the discussion but my thinking was we start 1 goalie like everyone has been talking about.
The other idea was that since some people are arguing that they spent a lot of money on a 2nd goalie only for it to go to waste by nixing that 2nd spot. My proposal would be to keep our best goalie in terms of PPG or something in their current contract, and to take the next best goalie on that team and reduce their salary by 50%, to reflect a true backup goalies salary.
Thoughts?
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I don't like the reducing the 2nd goalie sal. Let them trade him to one of the teams that needs a #1
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I don't like the reducing the 2nd goalie sal. Let them trade him to one of the teams that needs a #1
:iatp:
Some ppl looks like they've overspent on a 2nd goalie, so why reward them with the rule change by letting them off the hook?
As jmt said, some teams don't even have one respectable goalie....
And for those that do, a lot don't really have a 2nd goalie that reducing that 2nd goalie's salary would really do anything. Look at me, whoop-dee-doo, I would get 0.1m for a 50% reduction on my "2nd" goalie.
Just makes no sense to me to reduce the 2nd goalie's salary.
The NHL doesn't feel sorry for St.Louis or Vancouver to offer them a salary reduction on Halak or Elliot's contracts, or Luongo or Schneider's contract because one of them is a "backup"... Either they pay both guys, or they trade one!
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But the goalie was signed because the rules in place, the NHL has always only had 1 goalie so their rule hasn't changed but ours is.
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1 active goalie should be the way to go in a 30 team league but you shouldnt be reducing the 2nd goalie prices
I don't like the reducing the 2nd goalie sal. Let them trade him to one of the teams that needs a #1
:iatp:
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But the goalie was signed because the rules in place, the NHL has always only had 1 goalie so their rule hasn't changed but ours is.
If you have 2 goalies, what is the liklihood that they both start on the same night all of the time? In a week, between 2 starting goalies, you should get at least 5-6 starts easily, sometimes 7. One starting goalie gets you 2-3, sometimes 4. So there's still benefit from owning 2 starting goalies - why would we reduce their salary and give teams that already have a leg up on the league even more so, by adding 1-3+ mill to their cap space?
Seems ridiculous.
With all the rule change talk, this league seems to have gone downhill since the time I've signed up. I thought this was one of the better leagues on here (so I was told...)
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Let's not make too many tweaks to the goalie rules. Whenever leagues add too many iterations of rules it messes things up and gets way too confusing. That said I like using 1 starting goaltender in such a deep league. It should be enough to balance play a little in Franchise.
- Ottawa