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Fantasy Leagues => Franchise GM: Archives => Franchise GM: History Books => Franchise GM => MLB Leagues => Franchise GM: FGM Commissioner News & Tid Bits => Topic started by: Dan Wood on October 15, 2011, 08:17:41 PM
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Please post any propositions for the change in scoring here...I will give it a month...after that the RC will discuss and decide the future of the pitching scoring. I would like to get this done before free agency begins, since it could effect certain players.
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Broken record time again.
I vote for Game Score. Game Score is a metric devised by Bill James to determine the strength of a pitcher in any particular baseball game. To determine a starting pitcher's game score:
1. Start with 50 points.
2. Add 1 point for each out recorded, so 3 points for every complete inning pitched.
3. Add 2 points for each inning completed after the 4th.
4. Add 1 point for each strikeout.
5. Subtract 2 points for each hit allowed.
6. Subtract 4 points for each earned run allowed.
7. Subtract 2 points for each unearned run allowed.
8. Subtract 1 point for each walk.
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Broken record time again.
I vote for Game Score. Game Score is a metric devised by Bill James to determine the strength of a pitcher in any particular baseball game. To determine a starting pitcher's game score:
1. Start with 50 points.
2. Add 1 point for each out recorded, so 3 points for every complete inning pitched.
3. Add 2 points for each inning completed after the 4th.
4. Add 1 point for each strikeout.
5. Subtract 2 points for each hit allowed.
6. Subtract 4 points for each earned run allowed.
7. Subtract 2 points for each unearned run allowed.
8. Subtract 1 point for each walk.
what's the impact on pitcher scoring using this system?
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See the link below.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/topperformers/_/type/pitching
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A huge change should not be made. Only a tweak. Teams have built there staffs around a certain formula. Minor tweaks is what would be fair.
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See the link below.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/topperformers/_/type/pitching
My concern is still the impact. Take Capuano's start, he gets 96 pts under the GSC system. In our current system, he is getting at least 9 * 13 = 121 pts, that's a pretty big difference.
If GSC is indeed a superior metric (can you prove this is the case?), I think the switch towards GSC should be gradual. We could have the pitcher's final score be a weighted average of the current system and the GSC system (e.g., 80% weight for the current, 20% for the GSC in the first year).
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Since Roy is the only one that proposed anything, it is time to vote...Roy's system or stay with what we have.
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You want me to post what we are doing in Moneyball?
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Home Runs Allowed (HR)
-15
Innings Pitched (IP)
5
Quality Starts (QS)
15
Pitched (K)
9
Walks Allowed (BB)
Default
-5
Saves + Holds (Sv+Hd)
10
This puts your studs at 3200.... 5 were over 3k, 19 over 2500....
Much better value here with pitchers. Seems to be well liked in Moneyball
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when are rules going to be consistent? it is hard to build a team not knowing what this league will look like in the future. please dont change picther scoring
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when are rules going to be consistent? it is hard to build a team not knowing what this league will look like in the future. please dont change picther scoring
Chris, I tend to agree with you, but the league wanted to change...I gave them the opportunity over a month ago to present a way to change the pitching scoring to more represent how they felt it should be, while not making too drastic of a change. As well as to get it done before free agency started.
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Home Runs Allowed (HR)
-15
Innings Pitched (IP)
5
Quality Starts (QS)
15
Pitched (K)
9
Walks Allowed (BB)
Default
-5
Saves + Holds (Sv+Hd)
10
This puts your studs at 3200.... 5 were over 3k, 19 over 2500....
Much better value here with pitchers. Seems to be well liked in Moneyball
Corey, it is too different from the 70/30 split that we have grown accustomed to here at FGM. You can present it as an option, but it doesn't have my vote. Sorry dude.
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No prob totally understandable, 70/30 is just absolutely insane. lol
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So far we have
Dan: Nay for change. I have argued it from the get go. We already have a built in value parameter for pitchers, there is no point in changing it. It is like comparing AVG leagues and OBP leagues. We already know what to expect going forward. If money wasn't so valuable in this league then I am all for changing, but teams are built, some with very little payroll flexibility. I say leave well enough alone.
Waiting on Colby, Ben, Mike B., Howe, and Roy
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So far we have
Dan: Nay for change. I have argued it from the get go. We already have a built in value parameter for pitchers, there is no point in changing it. It is like comparing AVG leagues and OBP leagues. We already know what to expect going forward. If money wasn't so valuable in this league then I am all for changing, but teams are built, some with very little payroll flexibility. I say leave well enough alone.
:iatp:
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So far we have
Dan: Nay for change. I have argued it from the get go. We already have a built in value parameter for pitchers, there is no point in changing it. It is like comparing AVG leagues and OBP leagues. We already know what to expect going forward. If money wasn't so valuable in this league then I am all for changing, but teams are built, some with very little payroll flexibility. I say leave well enough alone.
Waiting on Colby, Ben, Mike B., Howe, and Roy
Waiting on me? I've been among the most vocal that any change could only improve the pitching scoring. I have suggested Game Score on multiple occasions including this thread. Imo, we should not ignore the vast majoity of the league that voted in favor of changing the scoring. I believe the vote was over 75% in favor of change. I think most folks have tired of the topic, because it seems like we've been talking about it forever without doing anything about it. The # 1 thing that kills the pitching scoring is the reliance of GB in the current scoring. Pitchers like Derek Lowe can post 5+ ERA and 1.5+ WHIP and remain top 30 pitchers. HR allowed to me is the # 2 problem, because aggressive pitchers who give up solo jacks get killed in our scoring. I think it's time for a vote. Post 3 simple choices and let it be decided by a vote. My 3 choices would be the following:
1. Use Game Score
2. Modify current pitching to eliminate GB and HR allowed
3. Modify current pitching to greatly reduce reliance on GB and HR allowed
We can talk about the timing of when to implement the changes later, but doing nothing if 75% of the league thinks something needs to be fixed is not an option in my opinion. If it were, we should not have bothered with asking for a league-wide vote on the topic. Sorry for being so blunt.
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Yes many members of the league asked for a change...but everyone wanted something different. I asked for ALL members to give a suggestion as to how THEY wanted things changed. What did I get? Game score and a lot of NOTHING, that's it. So if EVERYONE was so concerned about it, more suggestions would have come rushing on through. They have not. And excuse me for being blunt, but I am tired of jerking around with this topic. The month for suggestions was given, the month has come and gone. This is it. I'm tired of it, as many others are. Vote or don't vote. If an agreement is not been reached by the start of free agency, then nothing gets changed. And we can try this battle of who could care less next season.
I said it before and I will repeat myself for the people in the cheap seats...if you don't like the league YOU joined...there is the door.
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I got do more research, but here is an alternative proposal:
Leave the current pitching scoring set as is.
Then add a secondary set:
XBH allowed: - 3
IP: + 3
Pitcher's score = Current Set * 0.8 + Secondary Set * 0.2
This would limit the impact to a pitchers score to at most 20% while at the same time reflect the actual events of a game.
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Yes many members of the league asked for a change...but everyone wanted something different. I asked for ALL members to give a suggestion as to how THEY wanted things changed. What did I get? Game score and a lot of NOTHING, that's it. So if EVERYONE was so concerned about it, more suggestions would have come rushing on through. They have not. And excuse me for being blunt, but I am tired of jerking around with this topic. The month for suggestions was given, the month has come and gone. This is it. I'm tired of it, as many others are. Vote or don't vote. If an agreement is not been reached by the start of free agency, then nothing gets changed. And we can try this battle of who could care less next season.
I said it before and I will repeat myself for the people in the cheap seats...if you don't like the league YOU joined...there is the door.
I vote Yea for change.
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My vote is nay...
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I vote yes to change and I am good with any of the three options listed by Roy.
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2-2...Howe, Colby could you please get in on this?
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Yay if change can be implemented before FA bidding and impact is manageable
No otherwise
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Yay if change can be implemented before FA bidding and impact is manageable
No otherwise
:iatp:
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Then I leave it to you (Howe), Roy, and Mike B to pow wow, and come back with something that isn't too much of a drastic change from what we have.
The onus has been put on you gentlemen. Roy and Mike being the most ardent supporters of a rule change, not just on the RC, but in the league as a whole. If you want to recruit anyone else from our GM pool, you have my permission. You have just under 2 weeks to accomplish this task.
That is all gentlemen, thank you gentlemen, that is all...
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My concern is still the impact. Take Capuano's start, he gets 96 pts under the GSC system. In our current system, he is getting at least 9 * 13 = 121 pts, that's a pretty big difference.
If GSC is indeed a superior metric (can you prove this is the case?), I think the switch towards GSC should be gradual. We could have the pitcher's final score be a weighted average of the current system and the GSC system (e.g., 80% weight for the current, 20% for the GSC in the first year).
Roy, if you can come up with a response to this post, I'd more than willing to help the cause.
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Howe and I will calculate/review the pitching scoring using the alternative methods I suggested and share the results with the rest of the RC.
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Howe and I will calculate/review the pitching scoring using the alternative methods I suggested and share the results with the rest of the RC.
Good show...Thanks guys
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Guys,
Howe and I have agreed on our proposal to the RC. We would like to propose that we use a 50/50 hybrid of the current system and Balanced Game Score for 2012. Balanced Game Score is Game Score * 1.5. The multiplier is necessary, because the GS values are much lower than the numbers produced by the old system, and we don't want to skew the overall % of how much pitching is worth relative to hitting. The attached file doesn't show the results of the hybrid system, but it's easy to see that the majority of the players will be impacted up or down by less than 20%. Hellickson is the one guy I noticed that goes up dramatically under the new system. The RC can decide the weighting in future years. We can suggest something like 50/50 in 2012, 75/25 in 2013, and 90/10 in 2014 or 50/50, 60/40, and 75/25. Howe and I have agreed to let the RC decide the weighting in years beyond 2012.
Roy
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Guys,
Howe and I have agreed on our proposal to the RC. We would like to propose that we use a 50/50 hybrid of the current system and Balanced Game Score for 2012. Balanced Game Score is Game Score * 1.5. The multiplier is necessary, because the GS values are much lower than the numbers produced by the old system, and we don't want to skew the overall % of how much pitching is worth relative to hitting. The attached file doesn't show the results of the hybrid system, but it's easy to see that the majority of the players will be impacted up or down by less than 20%. Hellickson is the one guy I noticed that goes up dramatically under the new system. The RC can decide the weighting in future years. We can suggest something like 50/50 in 2012, 75/25 in 2013, and 90/10 in 2014 or 50/50, 60/40, and 75/25. Howe and I have agreed to let the RC decide the weighting in years beyond 2012.
Roy
Which column is the finished number, the balanced number?
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Which column is the finished number, the balanced number?
Column X = Game Score balanced
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Guys, just wanted to say you for the effort. I appreciate it, as I am sure the rest of the league does. The only problem that I have with it, is that most pitchers seem to have a decrease in their scoring. There is a slight shuffle overall in the top 5, but from where I stand, I'm still going to have to say we stick with what we have. I'm throwing it out to everyone else to get some dialogue going.
Thanks
D
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Dan, I understand the concern, but I think it's a bit misplaced. The impact of the scoring change is -0.1% for all pitchers.
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Dan, I understand the concern, but I think it's a bit misplaced. The impact of the scoring change is -0.1% for all pitchers.
That's a small change... I think the major problem people had with the scoring was the holes in the pitching stats. You could compare two SP outings and know that the one was superior but it scored far less points due to GB and IP.
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That's a small change... I think the major problem people had with the scoring was the holes in the pitching stats. You could compare two SP outings and know that the one was superior but it scored far less points due to GB and IP.
Let's take the Liriano no hitter an example:
Points under current system: 27
Game Score Balanced: 124.5
Points under the proposed system: 75.75
Evidently, the proposed system takes greater consideration the actual outcome of the pitching performance.
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Is it time for the RC to officially vote on this? In my opinion, we should give the RC 7-10 days to vote on this and put this to bed.
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Is it time for the RC to officially vote on this? In my opinion, we should give the RC 7-10 days to vote on this and put this to bed.
:iatp:
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Can we even do it now since we are using Fantrax?
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Can we even do it now since we are using Fantrax?
yes
all the components of game score are in fantrax.
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I vote nay to new scoring - keep old scoring
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I vote yes to new scoring, and I propose that we use the following blend of old and new methods to ease the pain of the change.
New/Old
50/50 in 2012
75/25 in 2013
100/0 in 2014
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i also vote yes for the change. for those who are voting no, can you please provide some feedback, so we can make some adjustments if necessary.
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Are we looking for RC voting only? Or all members?
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RC but I think we need a #7
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I vote yes to new scoring, and I propose that we use the following blend of old and new methods to ease the pain of the change.
New/Old
50/50 in 2012
75/25 in 2013
100/0 in 2014
:iatp:
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Do you guys have the annual progressions worked out on a spread sheet somewhere?
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Just to clarify, my vote is to change it to a combination of current system and game score, with 50/50 weighting.
My personal opinion is that 50-50 is the optimal weighting; it combines both the sabremetric theory with reality. I am not prepared to go to a complete game score system.
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Howe what does it look like with 50-50 weighting?
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Howe what does it look like with 50-50 weighting?
Dan, please see attached. Column Y and Z.
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I will agree to the change but here are my stipulations...
-We go 50/50 immediately or we don't go at all
-The Scoring for pitching is never brought up again, is never complained about again, and is not messed with again, because this exercise is becoming absurd.
If we can get 3 more votes to support that, then lets move forward with this and not move back...
If passed I want a detailed write up of the new scoring system, so that I can most it a PM it to the league
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I will agree to the change but here are my stipulations...
-We go 50/50 immediately or we don't go at all
-The Scoring for pitching is never brought up again, is never complained about again, and is not messed with again, because this exercise is becoming absurd.
If we can get 3 more votes to support that, then lets move forward with this and not move back...
If passed I want a detailed write up of the new scoring system, so that I can most it a PM it to the league
Dan, I think 50/50 is the minimum first step that's being put forth anyway. The debate will be whether we should go more aggressive on future years.
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Sorry thought we were starting out at a 30/70 split...I vote for 50-50 and leave it
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For the sake of clarity and expediency, I would like to propose that we vote on the following options.
1. Leave scoring alone.
2. use a 50/50 new/old hybrid method permanently.
3. Use the following time-frame to roll out the hybrid methods of new/old
2012 50/50
2013 75/25
2014 100/0
I would suggest that an e-mail be sent to the RC as a reminder to vote, and the voting be closed on Friday, December 23rd.
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For the sake of clarity and expediency, I would like to propose that we vote on the following options.
1. Leave scoring alone.
2. use a 50/50 new/old hybrid method permanently.
3. Use the following time-frame to roll out the hybrid methods of new/old
2012 50/50
2013 75/25
2014 100/0
I would suggest that an e-mail be sent to the RC as a reminder to vote, and the voting be closed on Friday, December 23rd.
I vote for proposal #2 - 50/50... doesn't require too much time or any future updates.
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I vote for #2 as well. I think if both Dan and Roy votes yes on #2, then it's a pass.
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#2 looks like a winner to me :winner:
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#2 looks like a winner to me :winner:
With a couple more votes, we can put changes to the scoring system to rest for GOOD. :rool: :taco: :bacon: :disco:
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Who does number 2 work for? Me... :iatp:
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Is this a wrap? We got a majority on this.
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Yeah it is good to go, I need a write up on it, so I can post it and PM it
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Reminder for Dan to post about this and edit in the rules... pitchers are on sale in FA.