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Author Topic: Archive (as in, trash bin)  (Read 20447 times)

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Offline Garfield

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2012, 08:22:12 PM »
I support this. With trades, you'll have something to do during the season besides picking riders for races etc.

My thoughts exactly!

Keeping a number of riders (not too many though, maybe 5?) is a good idea too - I picked my favourite teams in a big part because of the riders those teams have. The keepers should get their real-life contracts (if possible to figure out the terms of these, which may be difficult in cycling, especially for non-star riders; and if reasonable in terms of this game - an unproven young talent with a three-year contract shouldn't take up 1 million). That would also make people think twice whether they want to keep Contador, Gilbert, Cavendish etc. on their team. Contador alone would probably hit the salary cap...

OK, I can't promise anything, but how about a small test:
1. Somebody comes up with a reliable link to a website listing at least most salaries. If it doesn't exist, we can always use PCM2011, no?
2. In the meantime, you guys start feeding me PMs with your proposed keepers in the below format (and don't get scared by the 5M, it was simply the first number that came to mind and can be changed).

Preferred number of keepers for the game to work well = 1/3/5 (choose one)
My keepers* if keeping 1/3/5:
1.
-----
2.
3.
-----
4.
5.

* - hint: everybody who applied thus far goes with his 1st favourite team, except for Jaroslav (your 2nd), and Tony/Flu (identical order for 1st and 2nd, so fight to the death or give me both for now).
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Offline Flu

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2012, 05:53:24 AM »

* - hint: everybody who applied thus far goes with his 1st favourite team, except for Jaroslav (your 2nd), and Tony/Flu (identical order for 1st and 2nd, so fight to the death or give me both for now).

My 1st and 2nd picks for teams are roughly at equal level for me, so I'm perfectly willing to go with my 2nd pick and let tony have nr.1.

Offline Flu

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2012, 07:01:16 AM »
About trades: I'm in favor of this as well.
Should there be a limit to the nr. of trades you can do per season? (Not crucial, I think - since two teams are involved, it's hard to go overboard with this or abuse this system. Unless, I suppose, someone loses interest halfway through a season and trades off a bunch of his best riders to his buddy, though then there's still the wage limits to avoid it from getting completely out of hand.)

What about trading free agents during the season? Or is that a can of worms better left closed for now?

Offline Garfield

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2012, 07:51:45 AM »
My 1st and 2nd picks for teams are roughly at equal level for me, so I'm perfectly willing to go with my 2nd pick and let tony have nr.1.

Brilliant. You both know what to do.

Should there be a limit to the nr. of trades you can do per season? (Not crucial, I think - since two teams are involved, it's hard to go overboard with this or abuse this system. Unless, I suppose, someone loses interest halfway through a season and trades off a bunch of his best riders to his buddy, though then there's still the wage limits to avoid it from getting completely out of hand.)

Fear not, I'll play God and stop any abuse if needed.
And cycling is for brothers gentlemen anyway :judge:

What about trading free agents during the season? Or is that a can of worms better left closed for now?

Probably safer if we discuss it sooner than later. Forbidding this would be my preference. (Special interest groups are of course "suspended" and "returning from suspension".) I'd propose amnesty (i.e. taking off the books completely) in next winter's auction for the pharmaceutically challenged still under contract.
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Offline tonymcf

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2012, 09:53:27 AM »
I fully support the idea of keeping a number of riders. It'll help keep a bit of identity around the squads if they have that core selection.

Offline Flu

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2012, 10:30:44 AM »
Probably safer if we discuss it sooner than later. Forbidding this would be my preference. (Special interest groups are of course "suspended" and "returning from suspension".) I'd propose amnesty (i.e. taking off the books completely) in next winter's auction for the pharmaceutically challenged still under contract.

Right, I hadn't even considered the pharmaceutically challenged yet. Releasing them from their contract in the next winter period seems like a good idea to me.

Apart from that, I'll do some thinking out loud.

Trading free agents - to be clear, meaning: trading one of your riders for a rider who was not picked by any of the 18 teams during pre-season - could get a bit tricky.

On the one hand, it probably won't be a huge issue. With 18 teams picking upto 30 riders each, most of the riders who'll score any significant number of points will probably be picked.

But there's always some surprise breakthrough from a virtual unknown. So some random neo-pro we all ignored in January might become a desired prospect in a few months.

I'm a total fantasy league noob, and I imagine this is not an issue exclusive to cycling, so there are probably plenty of precedents for how to deal with this. At first glance I think that, indeed, forbidding it completely would be the cleanest and simplest way to go.

Then again, with some rules it wouldn't be completely disastrous either, so for the sake of discussion:

Obviously, if someone's interested in a "free agent", a new auction has to be started to give other teams who might be interested a chance as well, rather than make it first pick. And after the auction is won, obviously the books need to be balanced, so you'd have to release a rider to stay within your wage limits.
The question with that would be whether you have to pick the rider you want to release before the auction, or can wait to see how high the auction goes before deciding which one. Or whether you need to release a rider at all, if the new rider doesn't make you exceed your wage/rider limits. And some other details, like from which point on the new rider's points start counting, etc. But generally, doable, and perhaps some interesting periphery tactics and a bit more to do during the season.

The question is whether it opens up too many routes for... well, maybe "abuse" is too strong a word, but maybe "tactical trading", in a sport where teams normally hardly change throughout a season.
For instance, you could use it to offload unwanted riders rather than bring in desired ones. Someone with a long term injury, for instance, or someone who underperformed. You could trade someone like that for an unknown for 30k/season, simply to make some room in your wage budget to allow for a bigger player to player trade later. Or if you have Cadel in your team for three seasons and he announced retirement, you could offload him by trading him for whoever. (Then again, maybe this last one is something to consider anyway - if dopers can be released from contract at the end of the season, maybe the same should be possible for retirees.)

Anyway, enough thinking out loud for now. Perhaps under certain conditions it could work, but I certainly wouldn't be against completely forbidding it either. If all 18 of us miss some unexpected point scoring machine, tough luck - we'll battle it out for him in next season's auction, then.


Offline Garfield

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2012, 11:40:41 AM »
I'm happy to announce that you're worrying too much :toast:

Obviously, if someone's interested in a "free agent", a new auction has to be started to give other teams who might be interested a chance as well, rather than make it first pick. And after the auction is won, obviously the books need to be balanced, so you'd have to release a rider to stay within your wage limits.

 :agent: You're missing one point which simplifying things.
Total limit of 30 riders does not mean you have to employ exactly 30 at all times. More importantly, you never get the right to offload anybody by signing a new guy. You just keep adding as long as there is space on the bus and your salary cap permits it, but a contract once signed has to be fulfilled.

So yeah, I like your proposal and I think it's safe. If you want to get somebody during the season, do start a normal auction. However, in this case you're required to send a PM to everyone, so that they don't miss it.
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Offline Flu

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2012, 04:00:03 PM »
Yep, that works.  :thumbsup:

I'm done worrying (for) now.  :toth:

Offline Garfield

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Re: Brainstorming
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2012, 06:32:55 AM »
Breaking news! :judge:

I have just found out about a brand new auction mechanic, and I love it!

Instead of the slow auction with a million threads as if the players were paintings, we select a subgroup of available players and everybody sends their offers for all players they're interested in to a PM box. After everybody does that (24h? 48h? Just send me a confirmation?) I look at it and declare the highest bidder for each player, this player thus joining the ranks of this team.

Pros:
1. Much more realistic. (Teams offer once, and then the guy sits down with his agent and checks what's best for him.)
2. Much quicker.
3. Much less frustrating. (If you're been through timed auctions before, you've seen enough of the last minute bids.)
4. New and exciting?

Challenges:
1. Slicing up the player pool in a smart way. I'm thinking take the top of the rankings, throw out the keepers, and then cut it off somewhere where it still wouldn't make you budget explode if you somehow won half the auctions. (Downside: the first slices would need to be very small.) Alternatively - slower but spicier - each team nominates 5-10 guys, no matter how big or small, to be part of the next slice.
2. Fairness (since I own a team too). I'm thinking Colby (the Godfather of this place) could create one dummy user per slice, who gets all our offers, and only give me the password to check the inbox once all offers of the slice are sent.
3. Intensity. Everybody would need to log on regularly (say once a day) while we do this.
4. Ties. There will always be a couple. I'm thinking the tied teams should add the tied guy to the next slice, with an equal or higher bid.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 06:37:29 AM by Garfield »
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Offline Garfield

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UCI WorldTour Archive
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2012, 08:28:52 AM »
[Temporarily locked as we're strongly leaning towards using CQ instead]

If anybody knows any website/database listing real-life salaries, please shout now. It would help a lot when deciding the keepers' salaries when starting the game.

If none is found, I will use the salaries and contract length as listed in the excellent database PPDB Giant 2011 of the popular computer game Pro Cycling Manager 2011, to be overwritten whenever we can get concrete information about the salary/length of the contract in question. These contracts are from 2011, thus if they were expiring this winter, the same amount (for most riders) and up to 100% raise (for breaking out riders) and a 1-year contract will be the default.

Example contracts from the game (monthly, do the x12 yourself)
Contador 1y 105k
Gilbert 1y 102,5k
A. Schleck 2y 100k
Purito 2y 87,5k
Cavendish 1y 85k
Farrar 1y 62,5k
Vandenbroeck 1y 57,5k
Vande Velde 1y 52,5k
Greipel 1y 50k
Leipheimer 2y 36k
T. Martin 2y 28,5k
Gerdemann 2y 18k
Horner 2y 18k
Zabriskie 2y 17k
Van Garderen 2y 17k
Vanendert 14k expired, because of his progress I'd propose 1y 28k
Klier 2y 14k
Galimzjanov 2y 11k
Bak 2y 8,5k
Brutt 1y 3,25k
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 03:50:09 AM by Garfield »
Skype: stefek-burczymucha
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