* UCI WorldTour


Author Topic: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations  (Read 2191 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Garfield

  • League Moderator
  • Legend
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 13774
  • Bonus inPoints: 0
    • :Blank:
    • :PHX:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :ARS:
    • View Profile
Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« on: February 22, 2016, 12:46:07 PM »
Facts:

1. As you might remember, for 2015 we had four late sign-ups, so a Pro-Conti division was created.
Possibly this year the same will happen: http://www.profsl.com/smf/index.php?topic=255651.msg1149598#msg1149598

2. As we're doing quite nicely activity-wise, there is a chance we'll keep growing.

3. Some people raised valid concerns of growing inflation if we keep pumping more money into the top division by including more and more teams.

Proposed solution:

A fixed size of the top division (e.g. the current 21) accompanied by a full-blown Pro-Conti division with a snake draft around January 1. Bottom 2-4 teams relegated, top 2-4 teams (N-1 at most) promoted. (Plus a chance to remain in the top division in case of abandoned teams.)

Small wrinkle: I'm guessing I can't implement it right now, since Ace is employing some kind of sneaky tanking. Starting next season?
funny
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
Skype: stefek-burczymucha
Leagues I run: Advanced NBA, Cycling, All-Europe Football

Offline Joelsim

  • All-Star
  • ***
  • Join Date: Oct 2014
  • Posts: 2097
  • Bonus inPoints: 0
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :BOL:
    • View Profile
Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2016, 05:14:12 PM »
Difficult to answer that question until we know how many are interested for next year. I'm definitely in for next year, can anyone else say that as a 100% definite now? If so, say...

Happy with a pro-conti this year, obviously.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 05:18:10 PM by Joelsim »
funny
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Offline davy duck

  • All-Star
  • ***
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Posts: 1585
  • Bonus inPoints: 0
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :AND:
    • View Profile
Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2016, 06:37:21 PM »
Indeed a problem.
And very difficult to answer.

Give me some time to think about. I got some primary ideas, but need to sleep about it ...
But the not-knowing of the number of teams is the challenge.
We need a good solution for 35 teams and for 20 teams ...
funny
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Offline Teton

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2010
  • Posts: 11211
  • Bonus inPoints: 0
    • :CHI:
    • :POR:
    • :Blank:
    • :OregonState:
    • View Profile
Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2016, 02:17:17 AM »
Facts:

1. As you might remember, for 2015 we had four late sign-ups, so a Pro-Conti division was created.
Possibly this year the same will happen: http://www.profsl.com/smf/index.php?topic=255651.msg1149598#msg1149598

2. As we're doing quite nicely activity-wise, there is a chance we'll keep growing.

3. Some people raised valid concerns of growing inflation if we keep pumping more money into the top division by including more and more teams.

Proposed solution:

A fixed size of the top division (e.g. the current 21) accompanied by a full-blown Pro-Conti division with a snake draft around January 1. Bottom 2-4 teams relegated, top 2-4 teams (N-1 at most) promoted. (Plus a chance to remain in the top division in case of abandoned teams.)

Small wrinkle: I'm guessing I can't implement it right now, since Ace is employing some kind of sneaky tanking. Starting next season?

My mistakes and learning curve this year may have me relegated (bottom 2-4) next year. I hope not! Hopefully, I get a little lucky this year and finish off the bottom. Whatever happens, I'm in next year!!!! I have been cutting back on Football and Baseball leagues to focus on cycling. I am enjoying it!
funny
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
Quick Ardennes 2019  - 1st
Cyclopaths 2018 1st
Quick Vuelta 2018  1st
Quick Tour 2018  1st
Quick Giro 2018 - 2nd
Quick Ardennes 2018  - 1st
Rainbow Cup 2017 - 2nd
Quick Cobbles 2016 - 1st
Rainbow Cup 2016 - 1st

Offline oliveira

  • All-Star
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2014
  • Posts: 1008
  • Bonus inPoints: 0
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :FCP:
    • View Profile
Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2016, 10:36:17 AM »
I think that we shouldn't implement new rules with consequences as relegations once the anual game has started. If we fix the WT at 21, promotions should occur as we have withdrawls.

Then, if some teams stay at ProConti level, we woud have a promotions/relegations system in 2017. But, in 2017, the Pro Conti teams could have access to the general draft with a reduced budget - like 2500 - to fill the 30 spots. That would reduce inflation impact and keep everybody in the same boat.

And a good bonus for ProConti teams to keep the focus could be the possibility, until Australian NC ou TDU, to extend 2 year contracts to 3 year contracts. So they have to balance the promotion objective with the making of a nice team once they get in WT. As an exemple, to snatch a guy like MA Lopez Moreno for 430k for the next 3 years could be the beginning of a very strong team in 2 or 3 years.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 10:50:59 AM by oliveira »
funny
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Offline Joelsim

  • All-Star
  • ***
  • Join Date: Oct 2014
  • Posts: 2097
  • Bonus inPoints: 0
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :BOL:
    • View Profile
Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2016, 07:17:02 PM »
I think that we shouldn't implement new rules with consequences as relegations once the anual game has started. If we fix the WT at 21, promotions should occur as we have withdrawls.

Then, if some teams stay at ProConti level, we woud have a promotions/relegations system in 2017. But, in 2017, the Pro Conti teams could have access to the general draft with a reduced budget - like 2500 - to fill the 30 spots. That would reduce inflation impact and keep everybody in the same boat.

And a good bonus for ProConti teams to keep the focus could be the possibility, until Australian NC ou TDU, to extend 2 year contracts to 3 year contracts. So they have to balance the promotion objective with the making of a nice team once they get in WT. As an exemple, to snatch a guy like MA Lopez Moreno for 430k for the next 3 years could be the beginning of a very strong team in 2 or 3 years.

Very interesting thought in principle, although I feel that teams which do become vacant could possibly benefit the whole league if they were emptied and those riders came back on the market. For instance Joseph's riders would all be available again next year.

funny
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Offline davy duck

  • All-Star
  • ***
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Posts: 1585
  • Bonus inPoints: 0
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :AND:
    • View Profile
Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2016, 07:59:02 AM »
Some brainstorming:

I was thinking more or less in the same direction as Oliveira.

First important thing for me is that everybody is in the same boat.
An important consequence of that is inflation. But I don't care. See it like a random factor that changes every year. IRL there is also inflation. The one year several teams quit, and there are a lot of free cyclists. Other years vice versa.

I would keep Pro Tour Division with 20 teams. I think relegations are needed. It's also a bit regretting or dangerous. Having very bad luck like Degenkolb, or having a rider who has an off-season like Kittel last year. On the other hand, contracting a rider for more than 1000$ a year is taking the risk your result depends on that one rider. So I think no mercy is needed there.
I would do it the hard way. Last 4 teams relegate. A milder way is that the last team relegates, and the 3 last ďaverage over the last 2 seasonsĒ relegate. Best four contiís promote then.
Off course I am aware that we have a problem for this year. So I would say that the 21 GMís of this year automatically go  Protour next year. And relegations start in season 2017.

Everyone is fishing in the same pool as I said, but Conti-teams have a budget of 1500$ for 20 riders. And they ride a different calendar. I would suggest they ride all the races that are not in the calendar for protour. That way other riders become more interesting. F.e. riders like Pallini.
As a plus they could have first choice in drawing the neoís. 1 draw, 1 neo per team.

This context is limited to 30 ŗ 35 teams I think in total. With more teams itís not doable to fish in the same pool.
Some extra features.
-   Contiteams may starting to bid from 0$. So in an extreme case, they can have a team of 19 riders with salary 0$ and one 1500$. But be aware that they donít participate in the world tour races, only in the lower categorie races.
-   When a team relegates, al his riders are fired and come available on the market.
-   When a team moves up to Protour, they keep their contracts over more years.
funny
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Offline Canto

  • All-Star
  • ***
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 1964
  • Bonus inPoints: 0
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :USC:
    • :MUD:
    • View Profile
Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2016, 08:43:47 AM »
As a potential new Pro Conti owner, I am of course for the relegation/promotion system.
Davy's systems for contract, draft and Schedule seem good (races limited to 2.1 and 1.1 ?).
To keep some extra motivation for this year Conti's team, if some owners of World Tour quit, it could be possible to have a promotion (to get to a full 20 teams), with their riders going to redraft. I think having at least one promotion this year will be better to give more interest to Conti's owner, end of 2017 is a long way...
funny
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Offline davy duck

  • All-Star
  • ***
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Posts: 1585
  • Bonus inPoints: 0
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :AND:
    • View Profile
Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2016, 08:58:38 AM »
Quote
As a potential new Pro Conti owner, I am of course for the relegation/promotion system.
Davy's systems for contract, draft and Schedule seem good (races limited to 2.1 and 1.1 ?).
To keep some extra motivation for this year Conti's team, if some owners of World Tour quit, it could be possible to have a promotion (to get to a full 20 teams), with their riders going to redraft. I think having at least one promotion this year will be better to give more interest to Conti's owner, end of 2017 is a long way...

Definetely agree in giving a goal to the conti's this year. If no GM of world tour quits this year, 1 conti promotes and we have 22GM's in 2017. Then you can relegate 5 teams and promote 4 teams for 2 year until you are at 20 GM's again in ProTour. If a ProTour GM quits, 1 more conti can promote.
funny
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Offline Joelsim

  • All-Star
  • ***
  • Join Date: Oct 2014
  • Posts: 2097
  • Bonus inPoints: 0
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :Blank:
    • :BOL:
    • View Profile
Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2016, 04:05:25 PM »
On a slightly different note.

When did Joseph last do anything? If he isn't involved can Canto take over his squad?

Then perhaps he could sell someone and buy a few riders etc etc.

Ace has a bit of cash too so it could get the market going a little.

Thoughts?

funny
0
like
0
dislike
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

 

Forum Search


Quick Profile

 
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

* Chat Room

Refresh History
  • Brent: Got it, I'll look into it.
    January 19, 2021, 03:35:42 AM
  • Daddy: No Brian...Daddy was umm. Occupied.
    January 19, 2021, 04:04:32 AM
  • Daddy: Almost WAR time. I'm going to need your help buddy.
    January 19, 2021, 04:47:11 AM
  • indiansnation: Ok let me know when
    January 19, 2021, 05:45:50 AM
  • indiansnation: Yeagg whats up
    January 19, 2021, 05:46:11 AM
  • indiansnation: That was quick mets fire gm
    January 19, 2021, 11:44:28 AM
  • indiansnation: Owner fired him
    January 19, 2021, 11:44:41 AM
  • Daddy: Guess he didn't approve of that latest trade. :rofl:
    January 19, 2021, 12:30:26 PM
  • indiansnation: Owner pissed off. He made him look bad. They are saying his previous teams he was on had no clue about this either
    January 19, 2021, 12:35:35 PM
  • ldsjayhawk: Alderson is making all Mets deals.  GM Porter fired for harassing female reporter complete with explicit photos while with Cubs
    January 19, 2021, 12:57:54 PM
  • ldsjayhawk: How hard is it not to be an idiot?  Doesn't anyone have a filter anymore?
    January 19, 2021, 01:00:11 PM
  • Daddy: Ouch
    January 19, 2021, 03:42:32 PM
  • DynastyDeacon: I wonder if the New York Knicks management/ownership and the New York Mets management/ownership ever talk. I am just picturing them calling each other from their own dumpster fires to make fun of all the stupid stuff the other one does.
    January 19, 2021, 03:43:05 PM
  • Daddy: The Jets are like thanks guys. :rofl:
    January 19, 2021, 03:59:46 PM
  • Thecliff: WCB2 :ATL: on CLOCK, :SD: on DECK, :WAS: in the HOLE...
    January 19, 2021, 04:01:34 PM
  • indiansnation: Looks like george springer and toronto bluejays have agreed to a contract
    January 19, 2021, 11:45:54 PM
  • Daddy: Damnit Phillies. Lol
    Yesterday at 12:17:03 AM
  • Daddy: Everytime I see somebody sign elsewhere while our roster features the remains of McCutchen it just eats at me.
    Yesterday at 12:17:52 AM
  • Daddy: Better get Realmuto resigned.
    Yesterday at 12:18:21 AM
  • Daddy: @Thecliff what can I tell ya. Bush is a very active league the last few years. It may be the most active.
    Yesterday at 12:23:37 AM
  • Daddy: Keeping it updated is quite the moderator exercise. :toast:
    Yesterday at 12:24:53 AM
  • Daddy: What team is DMarch47 in Bush?
    Yesterday at 12:28:12 AM
  • Daddy: Twins
    Yesterday at 12:41:28 AM
  • Daddy: His profile link is missing.
    Yesterday at 12:41:49 AM
  • indiansnation: Quintana signs with angels
    Yesterday at 01:14:33 AM
  • indiansnation: Springer gets 6 yrs 150m and know is a toronto bluejay
    Yesterday at 01:15:56 AM
  • indiansnation: Twins
    Yesterday at 01:17:13 AM
  • indiansnation: Quintana gets 1 yr  @8m
    Yesterday at 01:19:06 AM
  • Brent: Brian, did you get my PM?
    Yesterday at 02:11:38 AM
  • indiansnation: Brentbpm
    Yesterday at 03:42:13 AM
  • indiansnation: Brent pm
    Yesterday at 03:42:18 AM
  • Brent: Brian, replied.
    Yesterday at 03:58:12 AM
  • indiansnation: Brent trade posted good luck
    Yesterday at 04:56:49 AM
  • Brent: Confirmed.  Thanks
    Yesterday at 05:10:10 AM
  • Thecliff: :judge: WCB2 Draft :SD: on CLOCK, :WAS: on DECK. :BOS: in the HOLE...
    Yesterday at 07:45:56 AM
  • DMarch47: San Diego has made pick   :WAS: on clock
    Yesterday at 09:24:36 AM
  • Thecliff: :judge: WCB2 :WAS: on CLOCK, :BOS: on DECK, :KC: in the HOLE...
    Yesterday at 11:24:04 AM
  • Thecliff: :BOS: on CLOCK...
    Yesterday at 11:29:57 AM
  • Thecliff: :judge: WCB2 Draft :CHC: on CLOCK, :NYM: on DECK, :LAD: in the HOLE...
    Yesterday at 12:30:39 PM
  • curtmenefee47: Cubs pick is in
    Yesterday at 01:24:48 PM
  • Daddy: Boyz of Bush... Some of you "senior GMs" are creating extra work during FA.
    Yesterday at 01:28:37 PM
  • Daddy: Help us to help you. Fix fantrax lineups. Drop players who are eligible to be dropped. Have a roster spot available when you win a FA.
    Yesterday at 01:29:53 PM
  • Daddy: It's already a lot of work. If @Thecliff and I are doing almost all of it, please just run your team professionally. Should be easy. Look at your roster. Run your team.
    Yesterday at 01:31:28 PM
  • PsychoticPondGoons: Afternoon FNHLers! :taco:
    Yesterday at 02:59:49 PM
  • Thecliff: :doh: BUSH League 2 Open Teams :SF: & :TEX: ...
    Yesterday at 04:51:36 PM
  • Thecliff: :doh: WCB2 3 Open Tems :SF:, :KC:, & :LAD: ...
    Yesterday at 05:00:03 PM
  • Thecliff: :judge: WCB2 Draft :BAL: on CLOCK nd Round 2 :SF: on DECK, :COL: in the HOLE...
    Yesterday at 05:04:08 PM
  • jojowalkwalk: IndianaBuc pm
    Yesterday at 10:10:11 PM
  • AntMan: What it do FNHLrs! Great hockey tonight
    Yesterday at 11:36:32 PM
  • Thecliff: :judge: Trade in WCB2 to be voted on...
    Today at 03:56:01 AM