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Author Topic: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations  (Read 1791 times)

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Offline Garfield

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Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« on: February 22, 2016, 12:46:07 PM »
Facts:

1. As you might remember, for 2015 we had four late sign-ups, so a Pro-Conti division was created.
Possibly this year the same will happen: http://www.profsl.com/smf/index.php?topic=255651.msg1149598#msg1149598

2. As we're doing quite nicely activity-wise, there is a chance we'll keep growing.

3. Some people raised valid concerns of growing inflation if we keep pumping more money into the top division by including more and more teams.

Proposed solution:

A fixed size of the top division (e.g. the current 21) accompanied by a full-blown Pro-Conti division with a snake draft around January 1. Bottom 2-4 teams relegated, top 2-4 teams (N-1 at most) promoted. (Plus a chance to remain in the top division in case of abandoned teams.)

Small wrinkle: I'm guessing I can't implement it right now, since Ace is employing some kind of sneaky tanking. Starting next season?
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Offline Joelsim

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Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2016, 05:14:12 PM »
Difficult to answer that question until we know how many are interested for next year. I'm definitely in for next year, can anyone else say that as a 100% definite now? If so, say...

Happy with a pro-conti this year, obviously.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 05:18:10 PM by Joelsim »

Offline davy duck

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Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2016, 06:37:21 PM »
Indeed a problem.
And very difficult to answer.

Give me some time to think about. I got some primary ideas, but need to sleep about it ...
But the not-knowing of the number of teams is the challenge.
We need a good solution for 35 teams and for 20 teams ...

Offline Teton

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Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2016, 02:17:17 AM »
Facts:

1. As you might remember, for 2015 we had four late sign-ups, so a Pro-Conti division was created.
Possibly this year the same will happen: http://www.profsl.com/smf/index.php?topic=255651.msg1149598#msg1149598

2. As we're doing quite nicely activity-wise, there is a chance we'll keep growing.

3. Some people raised valid concerns of growing inflation if we keep pumping more money into the top division by including more and more teams.

Proposed solution:

A fixed size of the top division (e.g. the current 21) accompanied by a full-blown Pro-Conti division with a snake draft around January 1. Bottom 2-4 teams relegated, top 2-4 teams (N-1 at most) promoted. (Plus a chance to remain in the top division in case of abandoned teams.)

Small wrinkle: I'm guessing I can't implement it right now, since Ace is employing some kind of sneaky tanking. Starting next season?

My mistakes and learning curve this year may have me relegated (bottom 2-4) next year. I hope not! Hopefully, I get a little lucky this year and finish off the bottom. Whatever happens, I'm in next year!!!! I have been cutting back on Football and Baseball leagues to focus on cycling. I am enjoying it!
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Offline oliveira

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Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2016, 10:36:17 AM »
I think that we shouldn't implement new rules with consequences as relegations once the anual game has started. If we fix the WT at 21, promotions should occur as we have withdrawls.

Then, if some teams stay at ProConti level, we woud have a promotions/relegations system in 2017. But, in 2017, the Pro Conti teams could have access to the general draft with a reduced budget - like 2500 - to fill the 30 spots. That would reduce inflation impact and keep everybody in the same boat.

And a good bonus for ProConti teams to keep the focus could be the possibility, until Australian NC ou TDU, to extend 2 year contracts to 3 year contracts. So they have to balance the promotion objective with the making of a nice team once they get in WT. As an exemple, to snatch a guy like MA Lopez Moreno for 430k for the next 3 years could be the beginning of a very strong team in 2 or 3 years.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 10:50:59 AM by oliveira »

Offline Joelsim

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Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2016, 07:17:02 PM »
I think that we shouldn't implement new rules with consequences as relegations once the anual game has started. If we fix the WT at 21, promotions should occur as we have withdrawls.

Then, if some teams stay at ProConti level, we woud have a promotions/relegations system in 2017. But, in 2017, the Pro Conti teams could have access to the general draft with a reduced budget - like 2500 - to fill the 30 spots. That would reduce inflation impact and keep everybody in the same boat.

And a good bonus for ProConti teams to keep the focus could be the possibility, until Australian NC ou TDU, to extend 2 year contracts to 3 year contracts. So they have to balance the promotion objective with the making of a nice team once they get in WT. As an exemple, to snatch a guy like MA Lopez Moreno for 430k for the next 3 years could be the beginning of a very strong team in 2 or 3 years.

Very interesting thought in principle, although I feel that teams which do become vacant could possibly benefit the whole league if they were emptied and those riders came back on the market. For instance Joseph's riders would all be available again next year.


Offline davy duck

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Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2016, 07:59:02 AM »
Some brainstorming:

I was thinking more or less in the same direction as Oliveira.

First important thing for me is that everybody is in the same boat.
An important consequence of that is inflation. But I don't care. See it like a random factor that changes every year. IRL there is also inflation. The one year several teams quit, and there are a lot of free cyclists. Other years vice versa.

I would keep Pro Tour Division with 20 teams. I think relegations are needed. It's also a bit regretting or dangerous. Having very bad luck like Degenkolb, or having a rider who has an off-season like Kittel last year. On the other hand, contracting a rider for more than 1000$ a year is taking the risk your result depends on that one rider. So I think no mercy is needed there.
I would do it the hard way. Last 4 teams relegate. A milder way is that the last team relegates, and the 3 last ďaverage over the last 2 seasonsĒ relegate. Best four contiís promote then.
Off course I am aware that we have a problem for this year. So I would say that the 21 GMís of this year automatically go  Protour next year. And relegations start in season 2017.

Everyone is fishing in the same pool as I said, but Conti-teams have a budget of 1500$ for 20 riders. And they ride a different calendar. I would suggest they ride all the races that are not in the calendar for protour. That way other riders become more interesting. F.e. riders like Pallini.
As a plus they could have first choice in drawing the neoís. 1 draw, 1 neo per team.

This context is limited to 30 ŗ 35 teams I think in total. With more teams itís not doable to fish in the same pool.
Some extra features.
-   Contiteams may starting to bid from 0$. So in an extreme case, they can have a team of 19 riders with salary 0$ and one 1500$. But be aware that they donít participate in the world tour races, only in the lower categorie races.
-   When a team relegates, al his riders are fired and come available on the market.
-   When a team moves up to Protour, they keep their contracts over more years.

Offline Canto

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Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2016, 08:43:47 AM »
As a potential new Pro Conti owner, I am of course for the relegation/promotion system.
Davy's systems for contract, draft and Schedule seem good (races limited to 2.1 and 1.1 ?).
To keep some extra motivation for this year Conti's team, if some owners of World Tour quit, it could be possible to have a promotion (to get to a full 20 teams), with their riders going to redraft. I think having at least one promotion this year will be better to give more interest to Conti's owner, end of 2017 is a long way...

Offline davy duck

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Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2016, 08:58:38 AM »
Quote
As a potential new Pro Conti owner, I am of course for the relegation/promotion system.
Davy's systems for contract, draft and Schedule seem good (races limited to 2.1 and 1.1 ?).
To keep some extra motivation for this year Conti's team, if some owners of World Tour quit, it could be possible to have a promotion (to get to a full 20 teams), with their riders going to redraft. I think having at least one promotion this year will be better to give more interest to Conti's owner, end of 2017 is a long way...

Definetely agree in giving a goal to the conti's this year. If no GM of world tour quits this year, 1 conti promotes and we have 22GM's in 2017. Then you can relegate 5 teams and promote 4 teams for 2 year until you are at 20 GM's again in ProTour. If a ProTour GM quits, 1 more conti can promote.

Offline Joelsim

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Re: Brainstorming: 2nd division, relegations
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2016, 04:05:25 PM »
On a slightly different note.

When did Joseph last do anything? If he isn't involved can Canto take over his squad?

Then perhaps he could sell someone and buy a few riders etc etc.

Ace has a bit of cash too so it could get the market going a little.

Thoughts?


 

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