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Author Topic: Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming)  (Read 15925 times)

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Offline Joelsim

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Re: Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming)
« Reply #110 on: November 08, 2017, 12:23:18 PM »
Surely if trades are in the game its up to the owner and other party who is traded, unless someone is taking advantage of a newbie for example

Costa's sitting on a beach at the moment. Or maybe he's not riding for a reason, who knows.
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Offline Garfield

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Re: Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming)
« Reply #111 on: November 09, 2017, 02:40:58 AM »
I believe spotting talent is the main goal of this draft, and if you pick a rider that is going to become really big, you should be rewarded for it.

Still, we have to acknowledge it's immensely luck-based.
In 2014, Benoot was Vervaeke's u23 domestique, and so they went 9th and 3rd respectively in the 2015 draft. I got lucky.
So the argument is: to get heavily rewarded or punished for 2 years is a bit much. I must admit I'm still leaning towards 2x 1-year contracts.



Also, I tend to agree with Ace on the subject of trading neo's the year they've been signed in the draft. Year after, all good. IMO.

My gut feeling is closer to Tom's TBH, but let's hear other people's opinions first.
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Offline DJW14

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Re: Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming)
« Reply #112 on: November 09, 2017, 09:47:08 AM »
Fwiw, I agree with Florry's suggestion of 2x2 years
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Offline LosBrolin

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Re: Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming)
« Reply #113 on: November 09, 2017, 10:15:42 AM »
Fwiw, I agree with Florry's suggestion of 2x2 years

Same.
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Offline Canto

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Re: Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming)
« Reply #114 on: November 09, 2017, 11:09:39 AM »
Agree with 2 years contracts for both round.
Today the 2nd round pick are quite often useless, but could be a good bet in their second year.
ok also with the snake
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Offline Joelsim

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Re: Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming)
« Reply #115 on: November 09, 2017, 01:59:24 PM »
2 years is good, helps on the nurturing talent side and enables people to gamble a bit.
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Offline cranky

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Re: Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming)
« Reply #116 on: November 09, 2017, 03:11:16 PM »
I'd be happy with 2 x 2 year contracts from a snake draft.

Also agree with Ace that there should be a restriction on trading neos.
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Offline Garfield

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Re: Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming)
« Reply #117 on: November 10, 2017, 02:04:49 PM »
For some structure: a reminder of (now numbered) potential 2019 changes currently being discussed, plus a new one at the bottom:

1. 1-year contracts for 1st-rounders

My opinion: undecided, but I can see why it came up. After some years we've all become experts. This season :Lampre: Luis destroyed us, but teams 2-10 all finished in that 7300-8300 range. The season before that, the two teams on top of the rankings had Ewan and Gaviria as neos, while no fewer than 7 teams right behind them finished within mere 700 points. To give one of those teams 2 free years of the next superstar is like Christmas and Easter together.

2. 2-year contracts for 2nd-rounders

My opinion: probably unnecessary, it's a sheer lottery. None of us have ever heard of Patrick Müller, Simon Sellier, William Barta, Nicola Conci, Damien Touze, Giovanni Carboni, Matteo Fabbro, Corentin Ermenault, Bram Welten, Valentin Madouas, or Nathan van Hooydonck. We cannot know if they're good enough to become successful pros. Their bosses don't know if they're good enough to become successful pros. They don't know themselves if they're good enough to become successful pros! Also, it's irrelevant that they mostly sign 2-year contracts IRL - this is still a puny fantasy game. And passing remains an option.

3. Snake draft order

My opinion: undecided. The argument that we use it in all other games is irrelevant, because there we start from scratch. Here, :Lampre: kept Pozzovivo at 240k and Kwiato at 610k, that's why the current system is designed specifically to help out those who finished at the bottom as much as possible.

4. Restriction on neo-pro trades

My opinion: undecided. For a quick check on how you feel about it, you can visit the :RadioShack: sheet and ask yourself whether my kindergarten squad is good strategizing or rules abuse. Voices above range between Tom's "unless you're new, you should know what you're doing", via Fleur's "2nd year only", all the way to Ace's "entirely illegal, violates the spirit of the game".

5. A brand new brainstorming subject: new definition of neo-pro?

This year suddenly a lot of people are struggling to understand our definition:
"Neo-pro is a rider born in 1995 or later who wasn't on a real-life professional team (WT/ProConti) in spring 2017"
Also, when somebody new joins in the future, things would be easier for them if our definition matched the one used IRL.
If that's something we want to consider, it would require 2 changes: removal of age limit, and taking into account previous seasons too.
I believe the accurate wording would be "Neo-pro is a rider who never spent an entire season with a WT/ProConti team IRL."

Curious to hear your thoughts, but please think twice. Sligthly worried about any Pandora boxes like geezers who happen to have ridden for a conti team for the last decade. Example of neo-pros if the definition changes:
2017 - Dupont http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=7948
2018 - A. Jensen http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=17088
2019 - you-know-who http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=21971
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Offline Florry

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Re: Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming)
« Reply #118 on: November 10, 2017, 02:15:32 PM »
I just wrote this in the general discussion thread but I suppose it fits better in here:

If I may be so bold, I think we should consider changing the neo draft rules for next year. These would be my suggestions:
1. Snake draft
2. 2yr contracts in both rounds
3. A rider is eligible if he hasn't raced for a professional (PCT or WT) team before and fits the age criterion (see 4). This is excluding traineeships, riders who have only raced at pro level as a trainee are eligible, also a contract signed in August or later is seen as equal to a traineeship.
4. Increase age criterion by a year or two. For this year, for example born 1993 or 1994 and later, instead of 1995 and later.
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Offline Florry

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Re: Call me crazy (aka additional leagues brainstorming)
« Reply #119 on: November 10, 2017, 02:39:09 PM »

2. 2-year contracts for 2nd-rounders

My opinion: probably unnecessary, it's a sheer lottery. None of us have ever heard of Patrick Müller, Simon Sellier, William Barta, Nicola Conci, Damien Touze, Giovanni Carboni, Matteo Fabbro, Corentin Ermenault, Bram Welten, Valentin Madouas, or Nathan van Hooydonck. We cannot know if they're good enough to become successful pros. Their bosses don't know if they're good enough to become successful pros. They don't know themselves if they're good enough to become successful pros! Also, it's irrelevant that they mostly sign 2-year contracts IRL - this is still a puny fantasy game. And passing remains an option.
I don't mean to offend, but I have heard of and followed the progression of the names in bold. I would say none of my 2nd-round neo picks in the 3 years I've played this game have been random selections.
Most neos only begin to shine after a couple months or even a year on a higher level, of course they need time to adapt. To me, it makes sense to give them another year to really prove themselves, if you know what I mean.

Quote
3. Snake draft order

My opinion: undecided. The argument that we use it in all other games is irrelevant, because there we start from scratch. Here, :Lampre: kept Pozzovivo at 240k and Kwiato at 610k, that's why the current system is designed specifically to help out those who finished at the bottom as much as possible.
While I understand trying to help those that finished low in the rankings, we have a saying in Dutch, not sure if it exists in English: "new round, new chances". Basically everyone gets the same opportunities to build a strong team, and while some will have an advantage thanks to good signings in earlier years, I don't think it's necessary to handicap those teams so much. One or two good signings don't win you the game, it's the best team overall that wins. First and last pick in the neo draft is an advantage over two picks right in the middle, but not as big of an advantage as it is now.

Quote
4. Restriction on neo-pro trades

My opinion: undecided. For a quick check on how you feel about it, you can visit the :RadioShack: sheet and ask yourself whether my kindergarten squad is good strategizing or rules abuse. Voices above range between Tom's "unless you're new, you should know what you're doing", via Fleur's "2nd year only", all the way to Ace's "entirely illegal, violates the spirit of the game".
Personally, I am not a fan of hoarding all the 2-yr neos. I understand it may be a smart tactic, but I tend to agree with Ace that it violates the spirit of the game. You can get 10 to 15 riders for next to nothing that have huge potential to score big. However, in the 2nd year, we can more accurately judge the value of the neos, and if anyone is still willing to trade at that point, so be it, I don't see it as any different to normal trades.
 
Quote
5. A brand new brainstorming subject: new definition of neo-pro?

This year suddenly a lot of people are struggling to understand our definition:
"Neo-pro is a rider born in 1995 or later who wasn't on a real-life professional team (WT/ProConti) in spring 2017"
Also, when somebody new joins in the future, things would be easier for them if our definition matched the one used IRL.
If that's something we want to consider, it would require 2 changes: removal of age limit, and taking into account previous seasons too.
I believe the accurate wording would be "Neo-pro is a rider who never spent an entire season with a WT/ProConti team IRL."

Curious to hear your thoughts, but please think twice. Sligthly worried about any Pandora boxes like geezers who happen to have ridden for a conti team for the last decade. Example of neo-pros if the definition changes:
2017 - Dupont http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=7948
2018 - A. Jensen http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=17088
2019 - you-know-who http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=21971
I hope this does not violate forum rules but I run a game on another forum which focuses on young riders, and the eligibility criteria for that game are:

Riders need to fit one of the following two main criteria
i) be a first year professional rider (of any age), be it at World Tour or Professional Continental team.
ii) be riding at Continental level or lower, born in 1992 or younger, without having previously ridden as a professional.

For clarity, riders should not have already ridden a full year as a professional at either World Tour or Professional Continental level – riding as a stagiaire does not prevent selection. Riders who have signed their first pro contract in August (or later), are considered for the purposes of this game as no different from stagiaire riders.

But as you say, this would allow for some weird selections, last year Brazilian team Funvic moved up to Pro Conti, so we saw several people select older riders, for example Diniz, who was 30 at the time. It's weird.
I would suggest increasing the upper age limit just slightly, but I think it's most important to make any rider that has raced as a professional before ineligible, of course excluding trainees/stagiaires. In this case, a rider could have ridden as a trainee for 3 years in a row, as long as they fit the age criterion they are still eligible.
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