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Fantasy Leagues => Armchair Fantasy Baseball: Transactions => Armchair Fantasy Baseball => MLB Leagues => Armchair Fantasy Baseball: Completed Transactions => Topic started by: Lindner on January 13, 2012, 11:09:13 PM
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It was really a pleasure doing business with you Daniel! Maybe we can work out something in the future to bring Santana back home to Minnesota. ;) All of us Twins fan can break his jersey back out!
NY Gives:
P - Matt Harvey (Minor Leaguer)
OF - Jason Bay ($16M 2012; $16M 2013)
P - D.J. Carrasco (1.2M 2012)
P - Matthew Purke (2011 Amateur Draftee)
MN gives:
OF - Oswaldo Arcia (Minor Leaguer)
P - Kevin Slowey ($2.7M 2012; ARB 2013)
MI/OF - Trevor Plouffe ($.440M 2012; $.440M 2013; ARB 2014; ARB 2015; ARB 2016)
We are in rebuilding mode here in Minnesota and we think this deal really helps us achieve our current goals. We weren't very excited about giving up Arcia, as he is a very talented OFer, you need to give some to get some. Luckily, we have a lot of depth in the OF.
What we are excited about is the opportunity bring in a great young arm like Matt Harvey. Harvey has had a lot of success at double-A and could very well end up being a #2 type pitcher. We are also happy to bring in Matt Purke who we also think has a huge amount of potential.
Aside from Arcia, we are giving up Slowey and Plouffe. I'm not confident Slowey has much value while pitching in that hitters park in Colorado. We weren't very confident in the future of Trevor Plouffe either. Plouffe really can hit the ball, but his defense is lacking.. In my opinion, he will struggle to find everyday playing time while he remains in Minnesota.
We are also taking on Jason Bay and his contract to get this deal done. We have space and we aren't concerned about signing free agents in the near future.
Overall, we think this deal strengthens our farm system in exchange for a contract.
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Mets accept. We are extremely happy to welcome my countryman Arcia to the organization. Hoping to be able to build success similarly to what I did with Toronto in FGM - by signing Venezuelans! lol. Also glad to see Bay's awful contract gone. Harvey is arguably the best prospect in my organization and Purke is one promising southpaw, but the price to pay is worth the cap room cleared on Bay and Carrasco. Love this FA class, and while my Mets probably won't be competing any time soon, I would love to set the foundations with some of the FA available. Slowey and Plouffe are probably worthless, but they should at least be around the majors which should allow me to ensure I have enough major leaguers to avoid being penalized while we rebuild a once *if anyone remembers that far back* proud franchise.
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Wait what? I completely understand getting rid of Bay's awful contract but aside from that this deal makes NO sense. This deal is made solely on the fact that the guy is Venezuelan it looks like to me...a still very capable MLB outfielder, top prospect who projects as a 2-3 starter, solid bullpen arm, and a young lefty who projects as a middle of the rotation or better guy for 2 average to below average OF's and a guy that will get rocked in Denver? Twins themselves basically admitted this trade is garbage in their explanation.
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Quite frankly, the cap room alone is worth the trade. But in case you did not know, Arcia is not only Venezuelan, he is one of the best OF prospects in the league. He is a 5-tool guy and at least a top 3 prospect in the Twins organization, and Slowey in Denver is as useful as Bay will ever be... I am getting rid of 14m this year in cap room and 16m next year, plus there is always a chance that Plouffe gets some useful at bats in.
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Maybe not the best trade, but I don't think it's awful, per se.
Slowey is no where as bad as he performed last year, and his year wasn't even THAT awful despite his 0-8 record and 6+ ERA.
Bay is HIGHLY overpaid, no argument there at all, and you need to look at all the money he is saving there. for $15M he can EASILY get someone that scores twice as much (if not more) as Bay.
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I wonder WHY someone who is in "rebuilding mode" would be
trading FOR Jason Bay and his 16M contract !?
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.291 avg 46runs 23dbls 13hrs 51rbis 18walks 70ks 3sbs and projects as a corner OF=5 tools? Like i said i understand the Bay part of it but sending 2 top pitching prospects back plus a good bullpen guy for an average OF who strikes out a ton. It would make more sense if the prospects the mets were giving up were lower level guys and he kicked in money on Bay. This trade is just backwards...the guy rebuilding is getting the big contract PLUS the much better prospects?
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lol just reading your guys explanations again and you're both saying the Mets are getting back Crap players...how can this possibly go thru?
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My understanding of the matter is that Minnesota is not attempting to may a big push in free agency. They want to build this team through the farm system in the hopes of competing in about 2 seasons. Therefore, they are willing to take bad contracts and max out their payroll in exchange for prospects that can pay dividends down the road. The strategy makes sense because when they are willing to shoulder the additional salaries, the other teams are willing to give up more premium prospects. Then, all of the contracts go away in a season or two and Minnesota is left with a minimum payroll and a stockpile of young talent bordering on Major League ready.
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My arguement is you need to give up SOMETHING even if you are taking on a big contract. Go look at the Cubs/Marlins trade...that was a salary dump for me but i still got back Nolasco and Gaby Sanchez plus others.
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My understanding of the matter is that Minnesota is not attempting to may a big push in free agency. They want to build this team through the farm system in the hopes of competing in about 2 seasons. Therefore, they are willing to take bad contracts and max out their payroll in exchange for prospects that can pay dividends down the road. The strategy makes sense because when they are willing to shoulder the additional salaries, the other teams are willing to give up more premium prospects. Then, all of the contracts go away in a season or two and Minnesota is left with a minimum payroll and a stockpile of young talent bordering on Major League ready.
This is definitely why I did this deal. In 2-3 years, I'll have no bad contracts and a stockpile of high end talent.
Also, I think you guys are undervaluing Arcia. He is the #3 prospect on my team. He is projected to hit for big power.
I think you are also undervaluing the salary dump. Think about what kind of free agent someone could sign for $16M/year.
Slowey actually has some upside, as well. Slowey was a middle of the rotation guy on a Twins team that made the playoffs almost every year. He had spurts where he was very good. People seem to throw him under the bus because he was injured for one season.
It might make more sense for you guys if I line it up like this:
NY Gives:
B+ Pitching Prospect
B- Pitching Prospect
MN Gives:
B Outfield Prospect
$17.2M in 2012 Cap Relief
$16M in 2013 Cap Relief
A #4 Pitcher
A MI/OFer going into his second season that hasn't done much yet
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Well, I recall one of my first trades in FGM being very similar to this one. I traded away Aaron Hill and his beautiful team friendly contract after his monstruous season along with Vernon Wells, Overbay, Downs and some low draft picks for Phil Coke, Sam Fuld and a couple of higher draft picks. It ended up being a brilliant deal. With the money I cleared from all those contracts I was able to sign many top FAs. Both Aaron Hill and Vernon Wells sucked the next year, Phil Coke became a starter and I was able to trade him away for good value and I used my extra picks to draft Sean Coyle and Derek Dietrich. My team went to the playoffs the following year and to the WS the year after. Aaron Hill has been in almost every team in the league afterwards and never fetching any real value in those trades.. At the moment it seemed like a steal for the other team, but if you look at the trade now, two years later, it was a steal in my favor.
My point is, you never know what will happen with these players. When you are trading prospects and cap room it is very difficult to weigh their value. Bay is a huge bust with a hideous contract, Carrasco is a terrible reliever and overpayed in my opinion and I would had placed him on waivers if I had not traded him *prefer the trade as there is no risk of a cap hit. Plouffe and Slowey are two players I like and even though they are not particularly valuable, they are useful. Depth is key in this league from what I take from the rules. Arcia is young and in development, but I have seen the kid play and he is for real. All the scouts seem to agree with me by the way, so if you only read stats and do not care about the intangibles, that is your way of managing, but not mine.
Harvey is indeed a very good prospect, who certainly projects as a #2 starter. But, Mets prospects have a tendency to be misused in real life and I would rather let someone else take that risk than take it myself. Remember Mejia and Martinez?
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I'm not questioning why the Twins are doing this deal outside of the money, IMO they're getting the muh better deal...the explanations given at first dont make sense. I wont be voting for this trade...just my opinion.
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That's alright. Do some research on Arcia though. The more you learn, the more you will realize that the gap between him and Harvey, value-wise, isn't as big as you probably think.
I also think you are underestimating value of the salary dump. Think about what New York could do with the cash...
Would you be okay with the trade if it looked like this?:
P - Matt Harvey
OF - Jason Bay
P - D.J. Carrasco
P - Matthew Purke
for
SS - Jose Reyes
OF - Oswaldo Arcia
P - Kevin Slowey
MI/OF - Trevor Plouffe
The money saved on Bay is almost the same amount of cash Jose Reyes is getting paid by the Miami Marlins.
Jose Reyes signed for $17M/year
Jason Bay is on contract for $16M/year
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No further research necessary...my opinion wont change on the trade. And after all the complaining over the recent Cubs/Rays trade im curious to see how this one goes.
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I also think you are underestimating value of the salary dump. Think about what New York could do with the cash...
Would you be okay with the trade if it looked like this?:
P - Matt Harvey
OF - Jason Bay
P - D.J. Carrasco
P - Matthew Purke
for
SS - Jose Reyes
OF - Oswaldo Arcia
P - Kevin Slowey
MI/OF - Trevor Plouffe
Exactly what I was saying, you need to look at how much cap it's opening up and what you can do with it.
I don't think I have yet, but I approve.
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Jesus christ how many times do i have to say i get the cap relief part...im not 8yrs old, i understand. Go look at the Cubs/Marlins trade and how much salary i got rid of but i still got quality players back. The twins said they're rebuilding and then take on a huge contract, this trade is just all backwards to me.
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Jesus christ how many times do i have to say i get the cap relief part...im not 8yrs old, i understand. Go look at the Cubs/Marlins trade and how much salary i got rid of but i still got quality players back. The twins said they're rebuilding and then take on a huge contract, this trade is just all backwards to me.
Settle down bro....
Besides, you were only getting $4.7M in relief while the Mets are getting get $16M/year. That's a pretty big gap, in my opinion.
Also, if you read the prior posts, you would see why this trade isn't backwards for me. Either way, I don't care if you don't approve the trade. You're the only one at this point.
Thanks for your input though! It makes for good conversation :toast:
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Where do you get $4.7M at? Looks to me like i saved over $30M plus got my future 1B and a solid SP back.
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Woops. I was looking at the Cubs/Rays trade.
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See thats why I have a problem with this trade...he could have gotten more for the quality of players he was given up no matter what the cap relief was. Yes maybe Arcia will be a decent player but he's also a corner OF...plenty of those guys around the league. Usually the team taking on the salary is giving up the better prospects and is ready to win now...that isnt happening in this deal. Trade wasnt worth it IMO, obviously im the only one that thinks so.
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See thats why I have a problem with this trade...he could have gotten more for the quality of players he was given up no matter what the cap relief was. Yes maybe Arcia will be a decent player but he's also a corner OF...plenty of those guys around the league. Usually the team taking on the salary is giving up the better prospects and is ready to win now...that isnt happening in this deal. Trade wasnt worth it IMO, obviously im the only one that thinks so.
I'm not sure why anyone would want to take on contracts and and give up prospects, but that's okay with me.
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What contract did i take on Nolasco? If you look at the contracts i got rid of before you factor in the money i kicked in with it, i got rid of $90M and took on roughly $25M. After all is said and done i still saved over $30M...im sry but i dont see the problem in that deal.
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Could we please keep this thread to deal strictly with the Mets/Twins trade?
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Just trying to explain my reason for not liking it
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I was referring the this quote, not your trade...
Usually the team taking on the salary is giving up the better prospects and is ready to win now...that isnt happening in this deal.
It doesn't make sense to me, but that's okay. Obviously we different perspectives on this.
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Teams taking on high contract players generally do so bc they believe they're getting the better deal in the short term. They're willing to give up a little of the future to win now and aren't concerned as much about the money if it translates to more wins. A team like the Twins taking on roughly $30M to pick up some prospects is odd to me...a team that has more money available from year to year makes this trade more reasonable to me. I guess when you said you were trying to rebuild is where i got thrown off. Both the Mets and Twins are trying to rebuild so having Jason Bay involved in a deal where no money is going along with him is questionable IMO...if everyone else in the league is cool with it then so am I. Just not the way I would have done it.
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@chicubs. What makes that trade so great in comparison to this one? They are equally fair. On that trade you got rid of 30m , but over three years and committing 36m from your cap room during those three years to pay for a player not on your team.
You cleared 14m in 2012, 8m in 2013 and 10m in 2014. A notable achievement, yes.
But, I am clearing 14m in 2012 and 16m in 2013 without committing a single dollar from my cap. That looks pretty good to me as well and gives my team the added flexibility it needs.
Nice that you got Gaby Sanchez and Scott Cousins, but you also gave much more value than what I am giving away here. Keep in mind that you traded away arguably the top RP in baseball in Marmol. Soriano produces more than Bay *even though his contract is even crappier* and Zambrano may produce if he actually decides to pitch rather than get angry.
I believe that deal you made was undoubtedly fair, but also that it is not as different from this one as you keep saying. Just because you don't believe Arcia is any good does not make dozens of scouts wrong. I for one would pick Arcia over Cousins. And even though Plouffe is currently worthless, stranger things have happened. Jose Bautista was just as worthless two and a half years ago, and look where he is now. Sometimes all a guy needs is an opportunity to hit every day to explode. Plouffe has a lot of raw power and I like that.
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Scot Cousins is your arguement? The deal was done bc i saved $30M+ and still got back Gaby Sanchez and Ricky Nolasco...don't care what years the money was spread over. And you said Arcia is one of the best OF prospects in baseball...yes he is, after the other 25 OF's ahead of him. Also Marmol will be lucky to hold onto his closers job...how often do closers with no control make it more than a couple seasons in that role and to go along with that he was gonna make $17M. Apparently im the only one who doesnt like it so be happy.
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Can we get some votes on this trade to see what's going on? Thanks
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:iatp:
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At first, I was not going to vote for this trade, however after further consideration, I believe it is close enough that it does not qualify for a veto under Kenny's stipulations. Purke has considerable risk with injuries and if Plouffe could hit with alittle bit higher average he might justify the at bats the Mets are looking for.
I am not necessarily a fan of the trade, but I don't believe it meets the criteria, therefore, I approve.
:iatp:
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The Trade Committee's ruling:
3 Approves
0 Vetoes
It has been over 72 hours since this trade has been under the review process.
This trade has been officially approved by the committee.
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Processed as Transaction 459-460