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Fantasy Leagues => Dynasty NHL: Transactions => Dynasty NHL => NHL Leagues => Dynasty NHL: Invalid Transactions => Topic started by: Ric_2227 on July 11, 2018, 08:16:09 PM
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To :TOR-NHL:
G Keith Kinkaid, $2.6m (2022-2023)
G Cory Schneider, $5.8m (2020-2021)
LW/RW Kevin Labanc, $m (P-18/19)
LW Nicolas Deslauriers, $0.5m (2018-2019)
To :VAN:
C Alex Galchenyuk, $3.2m (2019-2020)
LW/RW Anthony Mantha, $0.5m (P-18/19)
C Clayton Keller, $0.5m (P-19/20)
RW Nick Merkley, $m (P-n/a)
D Pierre-Olivier Joseph, $m (P-n/a)
G Mike Condon, $4.2m (2019-2020)
Very difficult deal, but I needd to upgrade my goalie situation. I know that Schneider had hip surgery but I hope he will be ready for the beginning of the season. Goalies are though to get and I gave up several assets, but that's the price I had to pay to get the 2 goalies.
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Canucks confirm the trade.
Interest picked up after that Rinne deal came down, and out of the 3 teams interested (and 1 more semi-interested), we feel this is the offer that best fits our needs. Everyone had a different value for the NJD goalie duo but this offer won out.
Would have liked to keep Labanc as he did well in playoffs and was on that lethal 1st PP unit in San Jose, but oh well. Taking on Condon also sucks, but him and Galchenyuk even out the cap moving so there's no upper hand cap-wise here.
Overall, Canucks continue to get younger, and the hope is that teams like St.Louis and Colorado lose some of their assets after this year and we can finally win a title next season, when all these kids realize their potential.
Thanks to all others who were in on the Schneider/Kinkaid trade talks, sorry we couldn't make it happen!
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Leaf's mortgaging their entire future for what's left of Schneider? Look, I know Kinkaid has value but to steal a phrase "he's a 29 year-old back-up". Sure, maybe he get's the starting gig and runs with it, but who knows? Sure, with the tandem Toronto would get all of New Jersey's starts, but who cares?
The thing about this league that seems to be eluding the new guys is that it's going to take a bit of time to build a contender. Trading away the likes of Mantha, Galchenyk, and Keller from my point of view is nuts. Joseph and Merkley are both top quality prospects as well.
I thought I was going to have to think about it awhile but the more I look at it the less I like it. It's too much for too little. I won't bother posting a complete breakdown....at the end of the day it's all pretty subjective anyway. But I have looked up the ages, time on ice, draft position, and contract status of a lot of these pieces so don't think I say this lightly.
:veto:
So that's my vote. The rest of the TC to follow.
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Overall, Canucks continue to get younger, and the hope is that teams like St.Louis and Colorado lose some of their assets after this year and we can finally win a title next season, when all these kids realize their potential.
The only players I'm likely to lose for next year are Marleau and Okposo... The Blues aren't going anywhere...
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:iatp:
I've been thinking about this trade for the past 12 hours. I think this is a clear win for Vancouver and because of that reason, I don't like this trade, but I do understand where Toronto may be coming from.
The NJ goalie tandem should net around 400 fpts for the year, assuming they score within the ballpark 350-500 range of a tandem. Keller and Mantha themselves scored that level last year, throw in Gally and the fact that they are all young and capable of 300 fpts each down the line, maybe as soon as next year, this looks like a terrible trade. Labanc has promise and helps even it out.
It seems that Galchenyuk, Keller, Mantha > Schneider, Kinkaid, Labanc except that G is an extremely rare position. Top teams in the league have more than 1 starting G and we are allowed 2 goalie starts a night. That also helps even it out.
If Grubauer takes over the starting job in Colorado, or more likely Varly gets hurt, Bishop is the starter in Dallas, and you have the NJ tandem, when does Condon play? Its tough to pay a guy $4 a year who doesn't play. I'd probably want to offload that contract and could see a Deslauriers for Merkley, Joseph, and Condon exchange making more sense. That makes it seem better in my mind.
There is also the possibility that Kinkaid and Schneider turns into two starters. The sample size is small when you're looking at guys like Darling, Dell, Kinkaid, Grubauer, who's a bonafide starter, who's a fringe starter, who is a true backup? Maybe Kinkaid takes over in NJ and Schneider is dealt to a team like Carolina or Ottawa, or someone else who needs goalie help.
I could see Toronto making a push this year, and if they thinks this helps them do it, then that's fine with me. They still have plenty of young and prime-aged talent. We saw bargain bin prices for Rinne, Luongo, and Anderson, but all of those goalies are on the wrong side of 36...
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We have seen 4 independent, consecutive trades between Vancouver and Toronto which have resulted in this:
:TOR-NHL: receives
G Keith Kinkaid, $2.6m (2022-2023)
G Cory Schneider, $5.8m (2020-2021)
LW/RW Kevin Labanc, $m (P-18/19)
LW Nicolas Deslauriers, $0.5m (2018-2019)
D Kris Letang, $5m (2020-2021)
D Matt Grzelcyk, $0.5m (2018-2019)
D Jett Woo, $m (P-n/a)
X- 2018 3rd Round Draft Pick, St Louis, $m this year.
C Ryan O'Reilly, $6m (2019-2020)
2019 1st Round Draft Pick, Buffalo
Cash from Vancouver, ($1.5m) in 2018/19
Cash from Vancouver, ($1.5m) in 2019/20
X- 2019 3rd Round Draft Pick, Philadelphia, $m this year
:VAN: receives
C Alex Galchenyuk, $3.2m (2019-2020)
LW/RW Anthony Mantha, $0.5m (P-18/19)
C Clayton Keller, $0.5m (P-19/20)
RW Nick Merkley, $m (P-n/a)
D Pierre-Olivier Joseph, $m (P-n/a)
G Mike Condon, $4.2m (2019-2020)
D Derek Forbort, $2.8m (2019-2020)
G Louis Domingue, $3.3m (2019-2020)
D Jakob Chychrun, $0.5m (P-18/19)
C Nico Hischier, $0.5m (P-19/20)
C Nicolas Petan, $0.5m (P-18/19)
RW Nikita Scherbak, $0.5m (P-n/a)
The only player omitted from this is Jesper Fast who was traded both ways.
What we have here is:
-Toronto getting older, taking on guys like Schneider, Letang, Kinkaid etc while not giving up anyone over the age of 26 other than Condon.
-Toronto doesn't gain any short term FP boost. Comparing all of these players output for 17/18 with allowances for certain players improving, Vancouver ends up gaining more FP in 2018/19 by my estimation. Toronto gives up youth for no immediate FP gain to play for this season - doesn't make sense.
-Vancouver gains way more upside/future talent. Labanc, Woo and the 1st round Buffalo pick are nice assets, but they're dwarfed by Merkley, Joseph, Chychrun, Petan and Scherbak. NOT to mention the upside of guys like Galchenyuk, Mantha, Keller AND Hischer - I'm just assuming all those guys stay the same as they are now - which is crazy, but. I think I've made my point.
Tell me how Toronto gets better through any of this?
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We have seen 4 independent, consecutive trades between Vancouver and Toronto which have resulted in this:
:TOR-NHL: receives
G Keith Kinkaid, $2.6m (2022-2023)
G Cory Schneider, $5.8m (2020-2021)
LW/RW Kevin Labanc, $m (P-18/19)
LW Nicolas Deslauriers, $0.5m (2018-2019)
D Kris Letang, $5m (2020-2021)
D Matt Grzelcyk, $0.5m (2018-2019)
D Jett Woo, $m (P-n/a)
X- 2018 3rd Round Draft Pick, St Louis, $m this year.
C Ryan O'Reilly, $6m (2019-2020)
2019 1st Round Draft Pick, Buffalo
Cash from Vancouver, ($1.5m) in 2018/19
Cash from Vancouver, ($1.5m) in 2019/20
X- 2019 3rd Round Draft Pick, Philadelphia, $m this year
:VAN: receives
C Alex Galchenyuk, $3.2m (2019-2020)
LW/RW Anthony Mantha, $0.5m (P-18/19)
C Clayton Keller, $0.5m (P-19/20)
RW Nick Merkley, $m (P-n/a)
D Pierre-Olivier Joseph, $m (P-n/a)
G Mike Condon, $4.2m (2019-2020)
D Derek Forbort, $2.8m (2019-2020)
G Louis Domingue, $3.3m (2019-2020)
D Jakob Chychrun, $0.5m (P-18/19)
C Nico Hischier, $0.5m (P-19/20)
C Nicolas Petan, $0.5m (P-18/19)
RW Nikita Scherbak, $0.5m (P-n/a)
The only player omitted from this is Jesper Fast who was traded both ways.
What we have here is:
-Toronto getting older, taking on guys like Schneider, Letang, Kinkaid etc while not giving up anyone over the age of 26 other than Condon.
-Toronto doesn't gain any short term FP boost. Comparing all of these players output for 17/18 with allowances for certain players improving, Vancouver ends up gaining more FP in 2018/19 by my estimation. Toronto gives up youth for no immediate FP gain to play for this season - doesn't make sense.
-Vancouver gains way more upside/future talent. Labanc, Woo and the 1st round Buffalo pick are nice assets, but they're dwarfed by Merkley, Joseph, Chychrun, Petan and Scherbak. NOT to mention the upside of guys like Galchenyuk, Mantha, Keller AND Hischer - I'm just assuming all those guys stay the same as they are now - which is crazy, but. I think I've made my point.
Tell me how Toronto gets better through any of this?
I'm not on the trade committee but I thought Vancouver was getting the better side of each of those deals when they were made. When you combine them all together as one trade though it looks horrible for Toronto. I get that when a new GM takes over a team that he will want to make some changes to put his stamp on the team. To me this looks like a case of a new GM not being around long enough to understand the value of players in this league. Keller, Hischier Chychrun, Laine, Ehlers Galchenyuk was a great young core for this team to build around and be competitive for a long time. In less than a week 2/3rds of that core has been dealt for a very underwhelming return that hasn't proved any immediate improvement for the team.
For all those new GMs out there those young players on cost controlled prospect contracts and eligible for prospect extensions are worth their weight in gold!
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I'm putting in my resignation. I think I don't have the choice.
I was trying to make my team competitive right away. That's why I went with older players. I felt that with the drafts I could get players that would replace the older guys and continue to be competitive. Most of the comments is contrary to my position. So, thanks for the opportunity to be part of your league and good luck to everyone.
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I'm not on the trade committee either, but I don't know how you can tell a GM to not be competitive, sit on their hands and wait until their prospects are good. It isn't your team. It isn't your vision. I also think maybe we are all getting our nips way to hard about prospects. Saw a great line in a story about trading for Erik Karlsson. If you have a prospect you think will be as good as Karlsson, but can trade the prospect for Karlsson, you trade for the player that is already that good.
I don't want to argue on behalf of other people, but I broke it down into 4 trades that probably would've passed TC no problem.
Leafs get cheaper, better goalie, lose no production and shed salary.
G Keith Kinkaid, $2.6m (2022-2023)
for
G Mike Condon, $4.2m (2019-2020)
G Louis Domingue, $3.3m (2019-2020)
RW Nick Merkley, $m (P-n/a)
You pay out the ass for a goalie in this league. Schneider is still only 32, which is 27 for a very good goalie. Galchenyuk has had 1 good year in the NHL and then a bunch of average. Anyone with a 32 year old starting goalie trading them for Mantha, Keller, and league average LW?
G Cory Schneider, $5.8m (2020-2021)
for
LW Alex Galchenyuk, $3.2m (2019-2020)
LW/RW Anthony Mantha, $0.5m (P-18/19)
C Clayton Keller, $0.5m (P-19/20)
Letang is old, but produces like few defensemen. Chychrun might be as good as Letang one day, or maybe he has had 2 knee surgeries within a year and doesn't.
D Kris Letang, $5m (2020-2021)
D Matt Grzelcyk, $0.5m (2018-2019)
D Jett Woo, $m (P-n/a)
for
D Jakob Chychrun, $0.5m (P-18/19)
D Derek Forbort, $2.8m (2019-2020)
D Pierre-Olivier Joseph, $m (P-n/a)
I wouldn't do this, but it isn't a bad trade by any means. A proven center, that is still only 27 for an excellent up and comer.
C Ryan O'Reilly, $6m (2019-2020)
2019 1st Round Draft Pick, Buffalo
X- 2019 3rd Round Draft Pick, Philadelphia, $m this year
Cash from Vancouver, ($1.5m) in 2018/19
Cash from Vancouver, ($1.5m) in 2019/20
LW Nicolas Deslauriers, $0.5m (2018-2019)
LW/RW Kevin Labanc, $m (P-18/19)
for
C Nico Hischier, $0.5m (P-19/20)
C Nicolas Petan, $0.5m (P-18/19)
RW Nikita Scherbak, $0.5m (P-n/a)
I wouldn't have went this way with the DNHL Leafs, but GM Rick did. If Rick is committed to this vision and doesn't cut and run. I think it is fine.
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My 2 cents
This is my first and only Dynasty league, and I made some terrible trades and got lucky a few times.
There is a learning curve - I have not seen anything outrageous.
We have some shrewd GM's here to be sure, I have learned from watching them operate.
Westcoastexpress turned his team around quickly when he entered the league, I would rate him as one of the better wheeler dealers.
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I don't know if It's too late to apologize for the way I reacted yesterday. I should have calm down before posting a reply.
I know now that the league put a big emphasis on prospects and It seems that the older players and the draft picks do not have the same value.
I would like to continue as the GM of Toronto if I can, keeping in mind that in the future I will have to protect what's left of my actual and future prospects. I realize that I have a lot to learn and I will have to change my mind set.
With regard to the trade, if the veto is not confirmed, I still want to go ahead with it because it was done in good faith and I'm not convince that in the and I will be the looser since I will end up with for NHL goaltenders. Thanks
Ric
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I don't know if It's too late to apologize for the way I reacted yesterday. I should have calm down before posting a reply.
I know now that the league put a big emphasis on prospects and It seems that the older players and the draft picks do not have the same value.
I would like to continue as the GM of Toronto if I can, keeping in mind that in the future I will have to protect what's left of my actual and future prospects. I realize that I have a lot to learn and I will have to change my mind set.
With regard to the trade, if the veto is not confirmed, I still want to go ahead with it because it was done in good faith and I'm not convince that in the and I will be the looser since I will end up with for NHL goaltenders. Thanks
Ric
Absolutely you're still welcome here. And please know that any judgement or criticism of your trades has way more to do with DNHL quirkiness than it has to do with actual hockey knowledge.
I was going to leave this for the weekend in hopes that tempers calmed - so I am very happy to read this response.
And, to be fair, I'm a little protective of that franchise. I counted Ryan (norrya) as a friend around here and he built what you have now and it was shaping up to be a real powerhouse. And I'm seeing the culmination of these 4 trades as a setback to that. Of course, if I knew everything, my team would be better! So not trying to say that, but, in any case, thanks for posting. We'll see how the rest of the votes fall on this and go from there.
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I don't know if It's too late to apologize for the way I reacted yesterday. I should have calm down before posting a reply.
I know now that the league put a big emphasis on prospects and It seems that the older players and the draft picks do not have the same value.
I would like to continue as the GM of Toronto if I can, keeping in mind that in the future I will have to protect what's left of my actual and future prospects. I realize that I have a lot to learn and I will have to change my mind set.
With regard to the trade, if the veto is not confirmed, I still want to go ahead with it because it was done in good faith and I'm not convince that in the and I will be the looser since I will end up with for NHL goaltenders. Thanks
Ric
Thankyou for posting this! To me, threatening to quit just confirmed that you really didn't care. I am happy to be wrong, and hope you dig in for the long term. :toast:
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:veto:
I had considered approving this trade, and in a vacuum I might have, but after a lot of thought about it I've decided to veto. This is not a good trade for the Leafs. In my opinion, it essentially it boils down to trading away young high upside pieces (Keller, Galchneyuk, Mantha) that have already shown a capacity to produce in the NHL/DNHL (for two of them eligible for prospect extensions) for an older goalie coming off an injury and his real life backup (so, essentially 1 goalie). On its own terms I could squint and see how it *might* work out in the short term, but I'm sure this trade would be regretted before long. Adding to that the context of the net effect of the prior 3 trades between these teams and the Leafs GM being new to the league leads me to a veto. I respect and understand "approve" votes, but that's not where I'm at -- call it paternalistic if you want.
Another thing: I'm confident that the TC members, however they vote, are shooting straight in their votes and comments and consider trades in the spirit of what they think is best for the health of the league. I don't think anyone is out to pick on anyone or to thwart anyone. It'd be really disappointing if anyone walks away from the league merely because of how the voting went on a trade.
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Sorry I am really late to the party here. I kinda was recusing myself from this deal because in full disclosure I had offered him a goalie deal of
G Craig Anderson, $6.1m (2019-2020) for C Alex Galchenyuk, $3.2m (2019-2020) (with the plan of negotiating down to covering some of andersons contract.) and I didnt want any appearance of bias when voting.
Personally I would never give up that much youth. (basically 5 - 1st round picks with 3 already quite successful at the NHL level) for a goalie that was losing starts and had been benched in the playoffs and now having hip surgery. There is a lot of potential there for this to be a disaster by year end or 2 seasons. I think Schneider is on a short leash this season. But I also get your urgency to finding a goalie #2 and this could turn out fine if Schneider rebounds this year.
All this said.... This is going to be a little unorthodox on my part.
I am leaving my vote in your hands. If after mulling this over the the better part of a week and understanding more about the league. If you still think this is a deal that is the right direction and within the vision you have for your team I will approve. If you want a mulligan, say veto.
This is also with the idea that you are committed and here for the long haul. I respect a guy that lives and dies by his decisions.
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Sorry I am really late to the party here. I kinda was recusing myself from this deal because in full disclosure I had offered him a goalie deal of
G Craig Anderson, $6.1m (2019-2020) for C Alex Galchenyuk, $3.2m (2019-2020) (with the plan of negotiating down to covering some of andersons contract.) and I didnt want any appearance of bias when voting.
Personally I would never give up that much youth. (basically 5 - 1st round picks with 3 already quite successful at the NHL level) for a goalie that was losing starts and had been benched in the playoffs and now having hip surgery. There is a lot of potential there for this to be a disaster by year end or 2 seasons. I think Schneider is on a short leash this season. But I also get your urgency to finding a goalie #2 and this could turn out fine if Schneider rebounds this year.
All this said.... This is going to be a little unorthodox on my part.
I am leaving my vote in your hands. If after mulling this over the the better part of a week and understanding more about the league. If you still think this is a deal that is the right direction and within the vision you have for your team I will approve. If you want a mulligan, say veto.
This is also with the idea that you are committed and here for the long haul. I respect a guy that lives and dies by his decisions.
I have informed GM of Vancouver that as proposed by snugerud. I have decided to 'say veto' because of the value this league puts on prospects.
Ric
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My vote is also a veto vote and that will kill the deal as it stands. The teams are welcome to re-work this.