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Fantasy Leagues => Franchise GM: History Books => Franchise GM => MLB Leagues => Franchise GM: Archives => Topic started by: Flash on August 03, 2015, 03:47:22 AM
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I have locked the original thread concerning this issue because things have gotten out of control. I'm not here to defend what we do or tell you we're doing the best we can. However, it's time to step back and look beyond our emotions.
My ascension to the role of Co-Commissioner is not uncommon throughout the vast array of ProFSL leagues--someone comes up with a idea for a league, writes up some rules, recruits some members, gets the league in motion and then leaves or asks someone else to take over because they have something else to do. The problem with that scenario is that sometimes things get a little lax and new leaders find themselves overextended or overwhelmed and they begin to let things slide.
Please don't think for a minute I am casting stones at my predecessors--for I am not. As a Co-Commissioner, I'll be the first to admit there are times when I could have done things differently. During a Rules Committee discussion, joeshmoe reminded me of the importance of sticking to the issues and not letting it sink to a level of personal attacks. Although that pronouncement was like a slap in the face, he was right and it has served as a reminder that I need to control my emotions.
Unfortunately, my lack of foresight has put my Co-Commissioner in a bad situation. One of the goals we have set for ourselves as leaders is to be more consistent in our rules enforcement. We have tweaked some rules for the betterment of the league, gotten rid of others, and tried to effectively utilize the ones we have in place. Common sense should have told me that allowing a trade to be posted at 11:58 pm without confirmation from both teams was only going to cause trouble. I ruled it to be invalid at first and then changed my mind and let it stand. I was wrong. I was wrong because I failed to really look at why it was being posted so late. It had nothing to do with a server problem because both GMs readily admit to negotiating the trade earlier in the week and simply failing to post it. Extending the trade deadline was really not pertinent in this case because both trading partners were guilty of something that hurts us all once in awhile--forgetfulness.
Is a lost trade really a tipping point? Over the years I have had things overturned because they were against the rules--and yes, I felt like quitting--but I thought about it and came to grips with the fact that I am not above the rules and that their application was not something I should take so personal. This, of course, applies to me and is intended to illustrate my perspective and is not a characterization of anyone in FGM.
I guess this invalidated trade is in fact the tipping point for the Rays GM. Earlier in the discussion he declared that at the of the season he would be resigning from the league--with the qualifier that it would give us time to find a replacement. Honoring that would clearly put the new GM at a disadvantage and it is not a request that can be deemed acceptable.
I do not want the Rays GM, or anyone else, to quit. I think things were said and feelings were hurt, but when things stop being fun, then I guess it's time to move on. As a Co-Commissioner do I get any special joy out of telling people no or getting called out? Do I like being portrayed as a dictator or as a rigid, archaic leader? Does it make me feel good when I'm bashed for enforcing the rules? Of course not? But I know it comes with the territory and sometimes, as my colleague reminded me, I have to play Joe Friday and stick to the facts. I stepped up as a leader of this league and do not apologize for it. Whether anyone can see it or not, I'm continually looking for ways to improve things, and I believe in the value of rules and their uniform application.
I'm sorry for the grief that has evolved from this invalidated trade, but make no mistake about it, no one is being forced out. A resignation in anger is still a resignation, and unfortunately, it's something I have to deal with. I wish I didn't have to, but I do, and I will have to find a replacement GM for the Rays.
Please note: Since the Rays GM has announced that his resignation is immediate, I am going to have to remove any players he put on waivers.
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I believe you are twisting my words here. I did not say I had forgotten it. I was simply waiting for confirmation.
I had already sent a final offer and expected a final decision from the Rays GM. He posted within the deadline. If this was yahoo for example, that would had meant my offer was immediately accepted and it would had been valid.
Also, I think we are missing the point here. Rules are made with a certain intention. The intention behind both GMs confirming a trade is that there are no fake trades made. There is no rule anywhere saying that a trade not accepted by both parties by the time the trade deadline arrives is invalid. Thus, the fact that the trade was posted before the deadline should mean it is a valid trade. What I see here is an executive interpretation of a rule, and if we are going to be so strict, we might as well go back to the previous point and highlight that there is no wording in the rules that indicate that a trade is not valid until both GMs accept it. In fact, the only mention in the rules regarding both GMs accepting is for the beginning of the 48hour period in which the trade committee should vote.
Likewise, I think forcing the immediate resignation of the Rays GM when he is in the middle of a playoff race, when he had stated he was willing to continue managing the team until the end of the season is downright irresponsible, and I do not understand at all how allowing him to finish the season puts the new GM at a disadvantage. I rather think that throwing him into the middle of a playoff race with a complicated waiver system to learn puts him at a significantly larger disadvantage.
I do not like the repressive nature of this league lately. I believe we used to be a more closely knit community that understood the essence of the rules over strictness of textual wordplay. I remember not too long ago a significant change in the rules was applied without a proper time buffer zone to allow GMs to make necessary adjustments. I think there was also a recent problem with a veto of a phillies trade that seemed equally unfair at the time, as having a trade fall apart because of a trade committee's apathy is terrible for the league. The less the commissioners have to interfere, the better. Thus, I think processing a trade after 48 hours without every member of the TC voting is fine, but vetoing it is terrible. A time extension should had been granted. Same applies here, flexibility is not a sign of weakness. Rigidity is.
On the other hand, I understand that GM duties are a pain and really appreciate that you guys are running the league. So just want to clarify this is nothing personal, just a shout-out for a little bit more understanding. After all, this is just a game and should be treated as such. The idea is to have fun.
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I am at a loss to understand what is so difficult to grasp here. I was offered a deal that was not formed as, what I am accustomed to being, a concretely worded offer. Turns out it was. I had made several attempts throughout the final hours of the deadline to reach Daniel via PM to no avail. I posted before the midnight deadline as an honest effort to OPERATE WITHIN THE POSTED RULES.
The problem for me, and subsequent decision to leave, was cumulative. You then have a follow up post by Rick that implies nefarious activity. As Ernie can vouch for, I take my integrity very, very seriously and to have it questioned was the final straw. To put in hours upon hours of work, trying to follow the letter of the law, have it not work out and THEN TO BE QUESTIONED ABOUT CHARACTER is not my idea of a "good time." If Rick can not understand how intermittent server problems in the hours leading up to a trade deadline can be problematic, that is his problem. I can, as can the other leagues, explain it to him, but I c an't understand it for him. Rick has decided the best executive course of action is to dig is heels in the mud despite the rising tide. Time shall tell if it was a good decision or not.
League-mates: please make no mistake about my exit from FGM...it is in no way forced. 100000000% my decision and my decision alone. Like I said from the beginning, my goal in illustrating all of this was to bring to light an oppressive "mood" that has set itself over the league. Perhaps with a couple infusions of common sense and human decency (an attempt made by Ernie and greatly appreciated by those keeping score at home), this league can return to its status as a ProFSL great.
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I have absolutely no intentions of wasting another day arguing about this. I will say that, by definition, a trade only becomes a trade when both parties agree to it. That's why the TC needs confirmation before they vote.
We have a deadline same as MLB (albeit 8 hrs later) because that is a cornerstone of this league- To replicate, as closely as possible, MLB. I don't think that the league office is going to take the word of one GM but instead must hear from both parties. And it must be done before 4:00P ET, period. I doubt very seriously that the Cubs can call in at 3:58:46 and say " Here's our deal we have with the Cards, they'll be calling you in about 15 hours"
If I had a serious trade offer a few days before the trade deadline I can't imagine myself forgetting it, losing it, waiting for confirmation, whatever the excuse is. I wouldn't stop until it got done. Sounds to me like there was a fair amount of miscommunication between the two parties in the days leading to the deadline. "Days" being pertinent as it has been admitted that the deal was proposed a few days prior. One must assume that both parties had "days" to consummate the deal. That's not the league's or my fault. Beside, there are people here whose heads would have exploded had this been allowed to pass.
As to the matter of the Rays GM's immediate release as opposed to finishing the year - Precedent has been set; believe me, I know.
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"And if I had a Porsche I'd paint it red..." That's great that you would have had the time ability to "not stop until it was done." My real life does not allow for that. Neither does Daniel's. Bottom line is that a deal by two long-time GMs was made in good-faith and posted before the deadline. Semantics are what killed the deal. Semantics are what's killing this league. Ambiguous interpretations of procedural issues, not black and white rules. Honestly, at this point it's all moot, I only passed VMart on waivers because I felt I owed it to Daniel. It was the right thing to do. I wanted to play out the season with the team I had spent countless hours building. The ruling elite have determined my continued stewardship of the team would be a detriment to the Rays/FGM. That is more than fine, I will cease any activity via fantrax effective immediately. Maybe the new guy will have a better understanding of the rules...
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How did I miss this :beer:
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I have absolutely no intentions of wasting another day arguing about this. I will say that, by definition, a trade only becomes a trade when both parties agree to it. That's why the TC needs confirmation before they vote.
Trade had been agreed to already via PM. Thus, confirmation is only about making sure the public offer is the same as the private one. If this is the way it is going to be then I suggest the rules are rewritten insuch a way that it is clear. Again, I repeat, the rules do not say this anywhere. You guys are making an executive decision regarding whether this was a trade or not and it has resulted in one GM leaving the league. When there is controversy, you might as well put it to a league vote or at least allow debate before making a final ruling.
Flexibility is a good thing.
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Trade had been agreed to already via PM. Thus, confirmation is only about making sure the public offer is the same as the private one. If this is the way it is going to be then I suggest the rules are rewritten insuch a way that it is clear. Again, I repeat, the rules do not say this anywhere. You guys are making an executive decision regarding whether this was a trade or not and it has resulted in one GM leaving the league. When there is controversy, you might as well put it to a league vote or at least allow debate before making a final ruling.
Flexibility is a good thing.
Daniel, that is the most ridiculous statement I've read during this entire fiasco. Agreeing to a trade via PM does not constitute a trade and you know it. You've made many trades in this league, you know the procedure and you know the deadline. All you had to do was take 2 minutes and post it. It's never been a problem before, why is it now?
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So I am supposed now to post trades before they are accepted via PM??? That is the fastest way to cluttering the threads I have ever imagined.
I do not agree at all with your logic nor do I understand the intentions behind this lack of understanding of the situation. Why so obtuse?
It is clear to me that if a trade is posted on the boards it is because there is already a verbal agreement in place. If you really are suggesting that all trade offers should be posted instead of dealt with via OM, then this league has officially descended into madness
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By the way, to make clear we are on the same page, I sent a final offer to Vols. Vols had not accepted it. I was waiting for his response. Apparently he tried to log when the server was down. Apparently, he did not have time to return until two mins before the deadline. At that time I am already asleep, thinking Vols simply did not intend to accept the offer. It is not that we had both agreed upon the deal and 'forgotten to post it'. It is just that we were at a point where me posting that trade would had been spam. I think there is no reason to believe that a trade that is posted by one of the parts is not an already agreed upon trade. If it were, the other person could simply deny it and be done with that. But if the other person is confirming it, clearly the agreement had occurred beforehand and the deal already exists.
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By the way, to make clear we are on the same page, I sent a final offer to Vols. Vols had not accepted it. I was waiting for his response. Apparently he tried to log when the server was down. Apparently, he did not have time to return until two mins before the deadline. At that time I am already asleep, thinking Vols simply did not intend to accept the offer. It is not that we had both agreed upon the deal and 'forgotten to post it'. It is just that we were at a point where me posting that trade would had been spam. I think there is no reason to believe that a trade that is posted by one of the parts is not an already agreed upon trade. If it were, the other person could simply deny it and be done with that. But if the other person is confirming it, clearly the agreement had occurred beforehand and the deal already exists.
Was a final offer sent to the Rays GM? I know that's what you're saying, but that's not what I gather from the trade rationale that was posted. Just to be clear, here's what was posted:
This deal was offered via a PM a few days ago and completely forgot about/lost/buried until the last hour. Held out until last minute to see if Daniel would be able to respond for certainty. Wanted to get this posted with the full understanding that Daniel has full right to not accept this deal, as the PM was not an official offer, but close enough that I wanted to get this posted in case the offer was official. Daniel and Toronto to confirm if they so choose.
I did not make up the part about the trade being forgotten, I gathered that from the initial post. From his posted trade rationale I see that the Rays GM "Held out until last minute to see if Daniel would be able to respond for certainty." Yet you say you made a final offer to him and went to sleep waiting for him to accept. It would seem that the Rays GM did everything he could to finalize negotiations with you, but you never confirmed anything. I'm not making that up or twisting anyone's words, it's right there in his trade rationale. He is so unsure of the trade that he points out "the PM was not an official offer" and he even gives you an out by saying you don't have to accept it. Clearly, this trade was not formalized at the time the Rays posted it and server issues aside, it is pretty clear that negotiations went on earlier in the week and could have been finalized and posted--but the two of you never really came to any sort of final agreement.
No one is proposing that trade offers be negotiated on the board or posted before the two parties finalize the terms. All of us negotiate via PM, messenger, or e-mail--sometimes with multiple parties involving the same players. However, in the years I have been in this league, I cannot remember anyone putting forth the argument that a trade was legal before there was confirmation from both parties. In some cases it takes a few minutes and in some cases it takes a few days, and most of the time it doesn't matter because most of the time we can do things at our leisure. But when there is a deadline, it means there is a cutoff point and things have to be consummated before that deadline passes--otherwise there is no point in having a deadline.
When you say, "It is clear to me that if a trade is posted on the boards it is because there is already a verbal agreement in place."; what is clear to me is that that there was no verbal agreement in place between the two of you because both of you state you were waiting for the other to confirm. That miscommunication led to the trade being invalidated and it's hard to accept because nobody likes to miss out on something because we missed a deadline.
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I think what Vols meant with that phrase was that so much time had elapsed that he wanted to confirm the offer still stood before posting it. I did not sent that offer the day of the deadline, and I had not forgotten about it. I had sent it several days before and he had failed to confirm because he forgot. I was just waiting from confirmation from him, but from my side the offer was delivered as set. That is why I am saying that once it was posted it was agreed upon.
'Alex Jackson, Tim Beckham and Darin Ruf (getting rid of his contract is a must to make it an even deal because VMart is no more than a rental for me, as I have no cap to resign him). Oh and I would need you to pay the difference on VMart this year since I have no cap room'
This was my PM to him. It pretty clearly says the terms of the offer that was posted. No modifications that would had needed further confirmation.
So, all in all, if he had forgotten and remembered just in time for the deadline, it sucks that it took so long, but it should still be valid as there was an agreement in place by that time.
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I think what Vols meant with that phrase was that so much time had elapsed that he wanted to confirm the offer still stood before posting it. I did not sent that offer the day of the deadline, and I had not forgotten about it. I had sent it several days before and he had failed to confirm because he forgot. I was just waiting from confirmation from him, but from my side the offer was delivered as set. That is why I am saying that once it was posted it was agreed upon.
'Alex Jackson, Tim Beckham and Darin Ruf (getting rid of his contract is a must to make it an even deal because VMart is no more than a rental for me, as I have no cap to resign him). Oh and I would need you to pay the difference on VMart this year since I have no cap room'
This was my PM to him. It pretty clearly says the terms of the offer that was posted. No modifications that would had needed further confirmation.
So, all in all, if he had forgotten and remembered just in time for the deadline, it sucks that it took so long, but it should still be valid as there was an agreement in place by that time.
In your confirmation reply, posted some 15 hours later, didn't you say: "Sorry, I had forgotten to post it too."? Why play the blame game and put it on the Rays? Is that really necessary? Seems like he was the one who was trying to salvage the situation. He forgot, you forgot, he was waiting for you to confirm, you were waiting for him to confirm--it all comes down to one thing--you missed the deadline--plain and simple. I agree with you, "it sucks", but you need to accept some responsibility here. There was a posted deadline, and for whatever reason, you missed it.
From your perspective, you had a deal, but apparently from the Rays GM's perspective, you did not. What else can be said? It's unfortunate, and I'm sorry it played out the way it has, but it's time to move on.
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Whatever. If I posted that was because I did not want to contradict Vols's story at the time. We clearly had a deal and he posted before the deadline. It really sucks that this league has lost its comprehensiveness. But whatever, really.
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I have locked the original thread concerning this issue because things have gotten out of control. I'm not here to defend what we do or tell you we're doing the best we can. However, it's time to step back and look beyond our emotions.
My ascension to the role of Co-Commissioner is not uncommon throughout the vast array of ProFSL leagues--someone comes up with a idea for a league, writes up some rules, recruits some members, gets the league in motion and then leaves or asks someone else to take over because they have something else to do. The problem with that scenario is that sometimes things get a little lax and new leaders find themselves overextended or overwhelmed and they begin to let things slide.
Please don't think for a minute I am casting stones at my predecessors--for I am not. As a Co-Commissioner, I'll be the first to admit there are times when I could have done things differently. During a Rules Committee discussion, joeshmoe reminded me of the importance of sticking to the issues and not letting it sink to a level of personal attacks. Although that pronouncement was like a slap in the face, he was right and it has served as a reminder that I need to control my emotions.
Unfortunately, my lack of foresight has put my Co-Commissioner in a bad situation. One of the goals we have set for ourselves as leaders is to be more consistent in our rules enforcement. We have tweaked some rules for the betterment of the league, gotten rid of others, and tried to effectively utilize the ones we have in place. Common sense should have told me that allowing a trade to be posted at 11:58 pm without confirmation from both teams was only going to cause trouble. I ruled it to be invalid at first and then changed my mind and let it stand. I was wrong. I was wrong because I failed to really look at why it was being posted so late. It had nothing to do with a server problem because both GMs readily admit to negotiating the trade earlier in the week and simply failing to post it. Extending the trade deadline was really not pertinent in this case because both trading partners were guilty of something that hurts us all once in awhile--forgetfulness.
Is a lost trade really a tipping point? Over the years I have had things overturned because they were against the rules--and yes, I felt like quitting--but I thought about it and came to grips with the fact that I am not above the rules and that their application was not something I should take so personal. This, of course, applies to me and is intended to illustrate my perspective and is not a characterization of anyone in FGM.
I guess this invalidated trade is in fact the tipping point for the Rays GM. Earlier in the discussion he declared that at the of the season he would be resigning from the league--with the qualifier that it would give us time to find a replacement. Honoring that would clearly put the new GM at a disadvantage and it is not a request that can be deemed acceptable.
I do not want the Rays GM, or anyone else, to quit. I think things were said and feelings were hurt, but when things stop being fun, then I guess it's time to move on. As a Co-Commissioner do I get any special joy out of telling people no or getting called out? Do I like being portrayed as a dictator or as a rigid, archaic leader? Does it make me feel good when I'm bashed for enforcing the rules? Of course not? But I know it comes with the territory and sometimes, as my colleague reminded me, I have to play Joe Friday and stick to the facts. I stepped up as a leader of this league and do not apologize for it. Whether anyone can see it or not, I'm continually looking for ways to improve things, and I believe in the value of rules and their uniform application.
I'm sorry for the grief that has evolved from this invalidated trade, but make no mistake about it, no one is being forced out. A resignation in anger is still a resignation, and unfortunately, it's something I have to deal with. I wish I didn't have to, but I do, and I will have to find a replacement GM for the Rays.
Please note: Since the Rays GM has announced that his resignation is immediate, I am going to have to remove any players he put on waivers.
Well said Ernie. The joys of running leagues for the enjoyment of others :)
All said I think everyone understands that a lot time and commitment goes into running a league. Ernie, I am glad you and Rick took control of FGM or we would not be were we are today.