ProFSL: Pro Fantasy Sports Leagues
Fantasy Leagues => Franchise GM: History Books => Franchise GM => MLB Leagues => Franchise GM: Archives => Topic started by: Daniel on January 31, 2015, 04:01:21 PM
-
So... what does this rule change mean? That we can sign players into our EDR? Does the player limit stay the same?
-
Also, why is this rule entering into effect immediately? I would say this is a big rule that changes the dynamic of league play and thus should be implemented for the following season like all previous major changes that have been made.
-
Finally, I want to say it saddens me somehow as the EDR is one of the best differentiators this league had that set it apart from others. Why do you guys want to make FGM more like other leagues, when it should be the other way around? This has been the most fun league I have ever been in, and there is a reason why so many people want to participate in it. Making it seem more like other leagues is like diluting the brand.
-
I actually disagree. This league IMO has become a little stale the last year or two. To me, having an EDR not means nothing about how good the league is. It's about the level of activity and the quality of the GMs. I think some of the other leagues have passed us by. I think it's good that we change things for the better.
Also, being that it's the offseason I dont think we need a year to prepare for this change. I also think this change is being made more of a big deal than it really is.
Changes are fine but the biggest thing we need is active GMs. IMO that is what will set this league apart.
-
I actually disagree. This league IMO has become a little stale the last year or two. To me, having an EDR not means nothing about how good the league is. It's about the level of activity and the quality of the GMs. I think some of the other leagues have passed us by. I think it's good that we change things for the better.
Also, being that it's the offseason I dont think we need a year to prepare for this change. I also think this change is being made more of a big deal than it really is.
Changes are fine but the biggest thing we need is active GMs. IMO that is what will set this league apart.
:iatp:
The reasons for people wanting or not wanting to make the change were hashed out and discussed ad nauseam in previous threads. While I appreciate and respect greatly your opinions Daniel, this ship is not/should not be returning to port. The EDR was actually one of the reasons many a new or prospective owner cited as reason for not wanting to "stick it out" with the league. While many of us hardcore GMs may indeed like the added level of difficulty produced by the EDR rules, that same level of difficulty was not conducive to recruiting/retaining new blood to the league and, more importantly, was a great inhibitor to people willing to take on a rebuilding project. This was evidenced just a few weeks ago if memory serves correct. Please do not take any of this as a slight or attack, I am just hoping to shed some insight as to, at least in my summation of the situation, why the change was made and is in the best interest of the league moving forward. :toast:
-
I am not part of the rules committee, but as one of the longest standing members of this league I am pretty sure I have a right to post my opinions about these changes. I do not know if anyone else out there cares about this, but I do think that some key aspects have been dealt with very poorly.
For starters, this league is supposed to be for the hardcore crowd. If a new GM does not find the league appealing because it is too complicated he/she can just leave and a new GM will come along.
Regarding activity, I do not see how this league in any way stimulates more activity from owners. In any case it stimulates less activity the way I see it.
Regarding the timing of the rule, we have done many changes during the off-season that apply for the following season and not for the immediate season because we all know that planning here is not done on a year by year basis and preparing your team to adapt to these changes takes more than just 1-2 months. This is something that affects heavily draft strategy and makes it even harder to rebuild a team than it used to be because it allows the really good teams to maintain a stack of prospects in the MiLB until they are good enough instead of having to use up roster spots and salary or release them to the FA pool. This basically allows rich winning teams to prepare better for the future and gives them yet another advantage in signing the few undrafted FA prospects that become good enough by letting them stow these players away in the MiLB. Losing teams have never had this problem because they would rather have the prospect in their MLB roster than in the minors because any source of points is valuable.
Also, I was following the 5MiLB extra spots discussion and quite frankly do not thing the final changes that were actually voted on and their implications were discussed thoroughly. Add the fact that the founder of the league voted against the change, and it looks like I am not the only one thinking that this change goes against the spirit of FGM.
Finally, I do not think I ever read anything regarding when to apply this rule and I do not understand how such an important aspect of the rule was not even discussed.
-
The statement that this change "allows the really good teams to maintain a stack of prospects in the MiLB until they are good enough instead of having to use up roster spots and salary or release them to the FA pool" I can make the argument that teams that draft well or are shrewd enough to acquire good MiLB talent SHOULD be rewarded by allowing them to retain that talent as long as possible. Besides, once the player accumulates 50G/40IP he can't be moved back down. As for FA strategy; look at the current pool. Just as in MLB, mostly players 30y/o+ that are too expensive to resign. I don't recall too many MiLB players that are even marginal being part of the FA pool. Te Prospect Extension rule takes care of that.
Also, according to the old rules once a player was promoted and played one game in the majors they must be added to your 40-man roster. So let's use Domingo Santana in 2014 as an example. He came up in July, played in 6 games with the Astros and was optioned back to AAA. HAD HE BEEN on a team's EDR he would be on their 40 man whether he makes it back to the pros or not. This way he can be moved back to MiLB until he accumulates 50G/40IP.
Granted the EDR was a staple here, unique to FGM and I argued this point in the discussion. On the other hand it has always been in FGM's "mission statement" to emulate MLB as closely as possible. MLB has an option system where we had nothing remotely close. I see this not as a wholesale change but as a good compromise between the two.
-
Dan, youre right. There was never a discussion about how to put this into effect. The rule in general has a giant loophole with no provision against a milb player scoring points. The RC did not do this league justice with this rule. It was jammed through without any real thought about implementation.
Proof, the rule proposal never even had a rewriet. Why? I dont know.
I personally believe the RC should be eliminated.
-
I am not part of the rules committee, but as one of the longest standing members of this league I am pretty sure I have a right to post my opinions about these changes. I do not know if anyone else out there cares about this, but I do think that some key aspects have been dealt with very poorly.
For starters, this league is supposed to be for the hardcore crowd. If a new GM does not find the league appealing because it is too complicated he/she can just leave and a new GM will come along.
Regarding activity, I do not see how this league in any way stimulates more activity from owners. In any case it stimulates less activity the way I see it.
Regarding the timing of the rule, we have done many changes during the off-season that apply for the following season and not for the immediate season because we all know that planning here is not done on a year by year basis and preparing your team to adapt to these changes takes more than just 1-2 months. This is something that affects heavily draft strategy and makes it even harder to rebuild a team than it used to be because it allows the really good teams to maintain a stack of prospects in the MiLB until they are good enough instead of having to use up roster spots and salary or release them to the FA pool. This basically allows rich winning teams to prepare better for the future and gives them yet another advantage in signing the few undrafted FA prospects that become good enough by letting them stow these players away in the MiLB. Losing teams have never had this problem because they would rather have the prospect in their MLB roster than in the minors because any source of points is valuable.
Also, I was following the 5MiLB extra spots discussion and quite frankly do not thing the final changes that were actually voted on and their implications were discussed thoroughly. Add the fact that the founder of the league voted against the change, and it looks like I am not the only one thinking that this change goes against the spirit of FGM.
Finally, I do not think I ever read anything regarding when to apply this rule and I do not understand how such an important aspect of the rule was not even discussed.
This is all accurate. This rule is a classic case of looking at only one side of the coin. We picked up one side of the stick but forgot to look at the rest of the stick we are picking up.
To compound the issue we implemented a rule with no guidlines and that changed the rules instantly. Bad form
-
I have been looking at this proposal for another 1.5 hours since I awoke and pulled it up on my iPad while on the thrown.
This time, I am looking at this through the paradigm of a GM. The amount of possible combinations of transactions I can complete has changed the competetive challenge of this league for the worse.
When I arrived in 2010, I took a team that had one piece. Nobody wanted SD. Then I traded that piece, Adrian Gonzalez on a prospect contract for Martin Perez (TJ surgery), Mat Gamel (knee, gone), and Hector Rondon. I then had a terrible first year drafting, horrible, Kolbrin Vitek was my first rounder. But I stuck with it, and now the Padres have some talent and could turn into a winning team shortly. I pulled a zinger on Chris netting Rizzo for Maikel Franco.
Does the argument that this is easier for new Gms make anybody feel good? That is what other leagues are for. This league should be for those who are willing to take projects and build them, a la Corey in NY.
What have we gained? An easier time to fill the spot. What have we lost? Our unique competetive edge.
-
The original discussion started on 8/27/14 and continued until 9/10/14 without a vote. I don't recall why it was rekindled but it was on 1/16/15 thru 1/24/15 again without a vote. We were just like dogs chasing our tails. It was at that point that Ernie and I decided to take a FORMAL POLL SITING EXACTLY what was being proposed and allowed RC members 5 days to vote/comment. So, yes there was structure and more than enough time for discussion.
The rule posted on the site are pretty much EXACTLY what was proposed in the poll. All I did was restructure for clarification and, IRONICALLY, add Line B.4 "Owners are not permitted to move players between the 40 man and MiLB rosters. All such moves must be approved and executed by the league office. Post all promotion/demotion requests on the "Transaction" page."
As far as implementation- If you take the time to research when the EDR was originally instated you will see that discussions started in the Fall of 2009 and was implemented before the 2010 season. Creating the EDR presented many more issues than these modifications do. In fact, the only rule I recall off hand that was phased in was Pitching Limitations. This was done to allow teams that had drafted/invested heavily in pitching to adjust to from unlimited to 65IP/8 starts. There are no adjustments of that magnitude in this rule.
-
@BHows: If it is emulation you guys want, then why not make the 40 man roster a 25 man roster with a 15 MiLB?
Also, I read the discussion and I think it was not discussed properly enough as several of the points and implications I touched were not even mentioned. Plus, the rule proposed may have been mentioned exactly like that in the discussion, but very near the end of it. For days you guys were discussing adding a 5 man MiLB.
With the implementation, your example is not a good point as the draft occurs after mid-season and the effects of the rule are not seen until the season after. This rule has immediate effects and even affects how FA is handled. It does have major implications on a team's strategy.
Finally, regarding the competitiveness, my point is precisely that a good drafter can right now do a good job of rebuilding and he can just promote his rookies when they hit the majors (he has no reason not to). What the MiLB does is basically allow prospect FA signings and prospects obtained in trades in the same roster as draftees (something that occurs way more often than you are making it seem like) and it allows owners to keep these major-league ready prospects stowed away in the minors forever if they never promote them. So basically draft strategy loses importance and trading ability becomes more important. I would say this is a regression for what this league represents.
-
This rule has been voted on and has passed. With 30 teams some owners will agree and like the change and some won't. This subject has been beaten to death and we need to move on.
-
This rule has been voted on and has passed. With 30 teams some owners will agree and like the change and some won't. This subject has been beaten to death and we need to move on.
:iatp:
I guess the old adage is true "No matter how hard you try, you can't please everyone"
-
As a major point, this added rule, rick should never have been added. You as leadership created a rule without vote of rc by doing such. It is a complete violation of the idea of an RC.
Furthermore, the rule addition does nothing to address the issue of milb players scoring. I have addressed this at length in previous posts. Your rule means that when I want to have my milb slot opened up, it just has to wait. It is a clerical rule and not one ounce of it talks about scoring.
A true attempt to fix the rule would have been one simple sentence, "milb players cannot score points". Yet this point was berated and dismissed. Your rule was for you, not for me.
As the rules currently sit, milb players can score points, just as edr players could. The rules allow for this.
-
I play in another league that has a MILB roster, and believe me when I say this, it is much better. Plus when teams aren't trading they are prospecting, at least giving life to the boards. I have been in this league pretty much from the outset and I will say this, it isn't as much fun anymore, it borders on boring. One of the reasons I left, there were many teams that were just purely unmanaged and dying on the vine. Much like the direction of this league, which at one point in time was the most fun and interactive league I played in. This rule change, as I see it, is to wake this league the eff up and get everyone involved. Just my two cents
-
@BHows: If it is emulation you guys want, then why not make the 40 man roster a 25 man roster with a 15 MiLB?
Also, I read the discussion and I think it was not discussed properly enough as several of the points and implications I touched were not even mentioned. Plus, the rule proposed may have been mentioned exactly like that in the discussion, but very near the end of it. For days you guys were discussing adding a 5 man MiLB.
With the implementation, your example is not a good point as the draft occurs after mid-season and the effects of the rule are not seen until the season after. This rule has immediate effects and even affects how FA is handled. It does have major implications on a team's strategy.
Finally, regarding the competitiveness, my point is precisely that a good drafter can right now do a good job of rebuilding and he can just promote his rookies when they hit the majors (he has no reason not to). What the MiLB does is basically allow prospect FA signings and prospects obtained in trades in the same roster as draftees (something that occurs way more often than you are making it seem like) and it allows owners to keep these major-league ready prospects stowed away in the minors forever if they never promote them. So basically draft strategy loses importance and trading ability becomes more important. I would say this is a regression for what this league represents.
@Daniel- What I original wanted was pretty much along these lines. In fact my idea would have included an option system along the lines of MLB. The difference was I WOULD HAVE KEPT the EDR. Go back to 8/14 and follow the discussion. Add 5 to the EDR, keep it the same, add an MiLb,do away with the EDR, pretty much chasing our tails; no way I was going to add to the confusion.
Let me ask you this: Are you well versed in Excel? Can you engineer the formulas and do the coding to incorporate this into our record keeping system? If you are I will gladly bring this before the RC for consideration. I do know this- The EDR as we knew it does even remotely resemble what actually happens in major league baseball.
And free agency be damned- There is no argument you can make that will convince me that it will be even slightly changed by this rule. The majority of free agents will be 30+ and/or were too high priced to resign. Also, those who have the most money at the start of FA will be the winners. This league is deep enough that mediocre prospects will be signed to prospect extension and will only reach the market when they are past their prime. I challenge you to name a prospect that was "stashed" 3-4 years on an EDR, then went thru the 3- year ARB period as a P-xxxx on the same team. Just isn't realistic here.
-
Please excuse the long-winded post, but what is really the issue here? Is it the departure from the past? Is it a perception that FGM will no longer be a "unique league"? Is it a question of trust? Is it really a belief that everyone will start having a different approach to play because our EDRs are now MiLBs?
I have been in this league since the latter stages of the 2010 season. In it's first two years in the league, my franchise, the San Francisco Giants, had three different GMs. The last GM took over another FGM franchise in 2011. My reason for pointing this out is that the level of difficulty in this league is an attraction, and will always remain so, because, regardless of the allegations that we are losing our "uniqueness", this league is much more than a league with an EDR roster.
FGM has a variety of unique characteristics. Our scoring is unique. Our emphasis on hitting over pitching is unique (although we do need a good set of SPs and RPs to be competitive). Our salary cap structure being tied to our success is unique. Our buy-out provisions are unique. Our pitching limits are unique. Our system of August waivers is unique. We have a lot of "unique" components, and yes, the EDR roster was very unique to this league.
During my time in FGM, I have seen some things change and some things which are never resolved. When I first came into the league, GMs had to have enough salary cap room to pay EDRs a signing bonus, and at times, had to drop a variety of MLB players to cover the bonus. I don't remember anyone saying that we should preserve that rule because it was a departure from history or that it gave anyone a distinct advantage. As a league, we have some things which may never be resolved because our Rules Committee discussions get bogged down in personality clashes and sidebars. Does anyone remember the fiasco involving the change in team ownership and how we went round and round, with a GM threatening to quit, a GM shouting injustice, and the questioning of what constitutes an effective GM? We got bogged down in "post wars" when we discussing seniority vs. effectiveness in relation to a particular change in ownership--and later, when asked to come up with some guidelines, we couldn't agree on anything. Is that because the Rules Committee is ineffective or is it because of the arbitrary nature of what we perceive as viable qualifications?
There is nothing arbitrary about his rule. It has specific criteria to be used in it's implementation. Let's stop crying wolf and think for a moment.
How is it that I was asked to be a Co-Commissioner? Was it the result of an election? Was I a part of a coup d'etat? Or was I just some poor soul who agreed to fill a void in a league I enjoy being a part of? As a GM, I have slowly progressed up the ranks in this league, first as a member of the Trade Committee, then as a member of the Rules Committee, then as a Transactions Moderator and Amateur Draft facilitator, and now as a Co-Commissioner. I'm not drunk with power, but I don't happen to subscribe to the notion that any league can be run as a pure democracy. There have to be times when leaders take the initiative to move the league in a direction it believes will help sustain it's viability. Are we going to have complete agreement? Hardly, but it is equally important for leadership to recognize that there are going to be a variety of times when decisions are susceptible to criticism and disdain. When a vote is taken, the results are pretty clear. In this case, the vote was 6-2 in favor of having an MiLB roster. It would be nice to have something be unanimous, but if the vote is not favorable to a particular member, it is not reason enough to say let's get rid of the process.
As Co-Commissioners, we are not shoving anything down anyone's throat. Unlike past rule change proposals, we placed the issue before the Rules Committee as a vote because we wanted a definitive answer. Change is hard sometimes, and it may account for some of the arguments I am reading here in this thread. Yet, there is nothing sneaky or dishonorable in the process of how the EDR roster was changed to an MiLB roster. In my time in FGM, the EDR rule was an issue of discussion many, many times. I fully respect the views of the Founder of FGM and his support of the EDR roster rules, but isn't it curious that two former Commissioners who presided over this league before the current Co-Commissioners supported the establishment of an MiLB roster? Why is it that they could not get the league to move in that direction during their tenure? Were they ineffective? Was the Rules Committee ineffective? Or is it because we have GMs who are members of various Profsl leagues where an MiLB roster is effective and in full operation? Sometimes the winds of change happen because the timing is right.
This rule change is not going to change the dynamics of the league. It doesn't promote the use of MiLB players to be used in our daily line-ups. It is not in bad form. It does not give the anyone an advantage over anyone else. Trading, drafting, deciding who to extend and who to release, deciding which positions to address during free agency, deciding which match-ups make the most effective line-up, those facets of the league still remain. There's no magic formula. Everyone has their own idea of how to effectively operate their teams and this rule does not change that.
Every member of the Rules Committee is a veteran GM who has history in this league and they all take their responsibilties very seriously. I'm all for having an active league with active participants. Personally, I agree with the essence of the following statement made by one of our veteran GMs: "This rule change, as I see it, is to wake this league the eff up and get everyone involved."
-
I challenge you to name a prospect that was "stashed" 3-4 years on an EDR, then went thru the 3- year ARB period as a P-xxxx on the same team. Just isn't realistic here.
I am not really sure what you mean to accomplish by this challenge, but I feel like you are missing my point.
There was a rule in place that forced teams to promote prospects when they reached major league status under our league rules. The fact that this rule is being eliminated to allow player stashing in this 20-man roster is precisely my point of concern. We already have 40 active spots which is way too much as it should be 25 15 like in the majors, and forcing major league players to be promoted to the 40 man at least forces teams to cut other players from their roster, something that is good for our FA pool. It is not that I am against change, it is that I think that the way this rule is being implemented is inadequate and that it is not getting this league any closer to more activity. Your initial idea seems to me like a significantly better solution. Having 25 man roster with 15 MiLB and an EDR is much better than having 40 man rosters and 20MiLB. I even think the 5 MiLB proposal was better than this, although I would had proposed to make part of the EDR MiLB instead of adding further roster spots and make it 2 or 3 instead of 5. Some flexibility is ok, but the 20 man MiLB allows this stashing of players that the league should would want to avoid. And whether it happens now, 3 years from now or never, I just do not like the idea of having a rule that allows this.
I wish I was as good as Excel so I could do what you ask of me, but sadly I am not. I do think that this proposal is way too far away from what you just mentioned, something I would wholeheartedly support as it definitely emulates better the MLB and does not hamper the balance of the league. I also think that if the reason this rule is being passed instead of what you just mentioned is because you did not want to further confuse owners is a very poor argument. Again, this league is supposed to be an advanced league, a bit of complexity is good, not bad.
@Flash: It seems like you are missing the entire point. What makes the EDR system unique is that it gives value to the draft and we all agree that the draft is one of the things that makes this league so special. We already have very few prospects that can be signed in FA and with these changes the Yankees of this world get a huge advantage by being allowed to stow their signings in this EDR roster. I am saying that this rule gives further advantage to teams with ample salary cap because now they can invest heavily on signing bonuses for the few FA prospects that hit the market and keep them in an EDR until they are ready so their day to day roster is unaffected. I think this allows the richer teams to maintain a very complete roster and at the same time to have a much better prospect core in their MiLB than they would otherwise have in their EDR.
-
@Flash: It seems like you are missing the entire point. What makes the EDR system unique is that it gives value to the draft and we all agree that the draft is one of the things that makes this league so special. We already have very few prospects that can be signed in FA and with these changes the Yankees of this world get a huge advantage by being allowed to stow their signings in this EDR roster. I am saying that this rule gives further advantage to teams with ample salary cap because now they can invest heavily on signing bonuses for the few FA prospects that hit the market and keep them in an EDR until they are ready so their day to day roster is unaffected. I think this allows the richer teams to maintain a very complete roster and at the same time to have a much better prospect core in their MiLB than they would otherwise have in their EDR.
I'm not missing the point, I simply disagree with you. I think this is a good rule change. That's why I proposed it and voted for it's implementation.