Avs and Lightening take #2

[snugerud]

AVS trade -
C Nick Bjugstad, $0.2m (P-n/a)
D Mark Barberio, $m (2013-2014)
LW Rob Klinkhammer, $0.2m (2014-2015)
C Tyler Johnson, $0.2m (P-n/a)
C Vincent Trocheck, $m (P-n/a)

Tampa trades:
LW Chris Kunitz, $6m (2016-2017)
RW Martin St. Louis, $5.6m (2014-2015)

[Tubbs]

Lightning approve. Sometimes you have to take a step back to move forward. I think I am adding good youth to my team as part of long term plan.

[Capn Cally]

Is it just me, or did this trade just get worse for Tampa than the other vetoed one...?

Barb, Klink & TJ for Marty St.Louis?
On top of the already vetoed Bjug and Troch for Kuny?

I mean, hell, I'd welcome another cellar dweller in my division to keep me company haha, but this seems a lot one sided.

[norrya66]

Is it just me, or did this trade just get worse for Tampa than the other vetoed one...?

Barb, Klink & TJ for Marty St.Louis?
On top of the already vetoed Bjug and Troch for Kuny?

I mean, hell, I'd welcome another cellar dweller in my division to keep me company haha, but this seems a lot one sided.

I agree with Cally

Mid-level specs just don't have much value.  I do like Johnson and Bjustand a little, but not close to enough for Marty and Kunitz!

[izaman3]

 

I agree with the Cap and Nor. For me this deal looks just as lopsided as the last attempt, if not more so. I'd probably need to see some draft picks and a bigger name young guy like Atkinson or Namestnikov

I know Tampa is rebuilding, but I feel like they can get so much more for these great pieces

[snugerud]

Well I can obviously see where this is going again I will accept it but obviously dont agree with it.

1) I am taking on over 10 million in extra cap.  10mill !!! guess what Tampa can do next free agency with 10 mill,,,he can sign a new "st. Louis and Kunitz". Think about it really in the end he is giving up very little and gaining a lot.  Not marginalizing Kunitz or St. Louis, but just making the point that with 10 million there is always another player(s) that can be bought. Add in the two players he can buy in FA and this deal slants hugely in Tampa's favor. 

2) What should I expect for return on a rookie that is scoring 3fpts a game and only costs 200k per year and can then be extended at a discount. Oh and I should add is in consideration for the Calder.  In my opinion that makes him more valuable than Kunitz. 

3) If anyone hasn't noticed Prospects that perform really well and cost only 200k are becoming a huge commodity with the inability to just go out and sign them. They are becoming more expensive to sign with having to wait 40 games or you take your 1 in 3 chance of them working out in the draft.

4) You guys are getting too enamored with name on the jersey and failing to really look at the merits of the deal and what it does for each team.  St. Louis is 38 is on his final year and with our cap going down very unlikely that I will be able to even retain him.  Kunitz is a great player but he is also 6 million a year.  I am paying a hefty amount for every point he scores. If no one has noticed the obvious the teams dominating the league right now are not doing so because they have James Neal signed at 9 million. They are doing it because they have a strong core of players that their contract is low with above average production. 

5) Sorry Cally but I find it a bit ironic that you are saying I am not giving enough since most of your deals this past season I though guys were giving way too much in youth and prospect, but kudos because you are going to dominate the league for several years for the reason #4 I stated above. Ie. St.Louis, Anahiem, Detroit, Carolina.

6) I think everyone is forgetting that Kunitz was on my team just 2 seasons ago.  I allowed him to walk to FA so Tubbs got him for nothing really.  Ask yourself if he signed and traded him to me 2 days later would you expect the same compensation?  I think if a player is acquired through FA than it needs to be factored into the equation of whether the trade is fair or not.

7) Tubbs has had both of these guys on the block for several weeks and I can only assume that no one else has come up with a decent offer that he thought was worth taking. 

8) My biggest point in all of this.  This is a deal between two long standing GMs in the league. Tubbs has been in the league a long time and I have been here almost from the first. Both teams in this case are making a deal based on what they feel is in the best interest of their team.  It has always been my opinion that the trade committee's job is not to determine if they "like" the deal or if you will give them something better(you think boston liked it when the pens got iginla... nope... but they still couldnt go veto it because they felt their trade was better), but act as a league protection against Collusion and from a "newer" or "unknowing" GM being taken advantage of.   Lets face it I have seen many good/great GM's quit a league because of a veto'd trade (some are in this league) , no I am not quitting (you guys wish) and I doubt Tubbs would either, but it is a huge frustration when you have spent days and multiple emails back and forth negotiating. 
This league has been good for it so far (not vetoing), just hope its not going down that path.

Phew, ok, I feel better now. 

(Sorry Tubbs. I still think the deal was good for both) Please Veto the trade at this point. I will not be re-negotiating the trade any further since I feel like there is nothing more to give. I will just continue pounding you guys with Bujstad and Johnson on my team. 

I agree with the Cap and Nor. For me this deal looks just as lopsided as the last attempt, if not more so. I'd probably need to see some draft picks and a bigger name young guy like Atkinson or Namestnikov

I know Tampa is rebuilding, but I feel like they can get so much more for these great pieces

I did offer Atkinson but tubbs wanted Johnson instead.  I think who is better is pretty debatable.  Personally I think Johnson will be better more because of who he is surrounded by.  Namestnikov has had good AHL success but that doesnt mean it would translate to the NHL. 

[GypsieDeathBringer]

I'm not on the voting committee, but thought I'd throw my two cents in since these trades have been so contentious.  I think this trade is pretty equal.  St. Louis is a great player, but in 2 years who is going to be scoring more points a retired or broken down St. Louis or Bjugstad?  Obviously it is Bjugstad who will be playing for 10 more years, and at least 6 of them will be at a reduced "hometown" contract in our league.  Factor that vast salary difference and right there I think that is fair. 

Now I'm looking at a Kunitz for Barbero, Klinkhammer, Johnson and Trochek trade.  Kunitz as long as he is playing with Crosby is going to be a beast, so maybe 3/4 years.  Klinkhammer is depth, Barbero is a solid top 60 kinda D-man, Trochek has been at least a point a game player all of juniors and Johnson has 16 NHL points in his last 16 NHL games (probably regresses a bit when Stamkos comes back, but still very good).  Add all them up and I think that is pretty solid for Kunitz.  No big name players, but you can't rebuild for the future by trading Kunitz for a slightly less old guy that scores during your rebuild window and doesn't during what you think is your window of opportunity and some ok prospects. 

The icing would be a 2nd or 3rd round pick, but I mean that would be the icing and a cherry since our draft picks mean so much now (i.e. about 20 million dollars if someone would've grabbed Gelinas).

[Rob]

I accept most of your logic here, aside from your point about Cally being hypocritical.  I think the deals he has made validate his point and serve as a sort of measuring stick for what I'd like to see in "rebuild" trades.  Sure, he's got a lot of good looking spects, but he's also taken on a lot of risk.  In all likelihood a good percentage of the youth on his team that we drool over are going to flame out.  I've never put that much faith in unknown commodities in my fantasy leagues.  Some people do it and have success, others do it and fail miserably.  From my experience the latter is the more likely result.  This is my biggest issue with the trade.  I have had to replace owners of "rebuild" teams way too often.  I got lucky with Cally and norrya, who have done a great job so far.  I'm crossing my fingers that limeygreen and jlapo are going to stick with us for the long haul and get their teams back into contention.  It's very hard to find competent GM's to take over these 'Blow-up/rebuild' teams.  So when I see these types of trades I do want them to be lopsided in the Cally fashion if that makes sense.  I know how much solid youth I've given up from the Bruins to land fantasy producers. 

On the other side I have a hard time vetoing your trade since I respect your approach on the TC (your point #8).  You've made this point several times and I don't have the same approach but I think it's a very valid point.  Though I think in addition to protecting new owners and preventing collusion, we also need to protect the overall integrity of the league.  I think we need to protect owners against themselves in some cases to make sure our league remains strong and lasts. 

Anyway, back to the trade itself, I thought about it over the weekend.  I didn't think the original deal was as far off as some others did.  I would have approved it if Colorado was sending a 1st round draft pick.  For a rebuilding team giving up St Louis and his salary for a guy like Johnson is a total win.  St Louis is completely useless to TB.  So I eliminate that part of it from the equation and see Barb & Klink added to the original deal for Kunitz alone.  Since Colorado's 1st round pick would be a late one anyway, I think these two players make up the difference to me.  For a competing team, the Kunitz/St Louis side of the deal is obviously the side I would take. 

Another angle here that people seem to forget about is this league is about depth.  Jared eluded to this with his teams paying $9m for Neal example.  My Bruins who have the 2nd best record and the 4th most fantasy points in the league rank 8th in FP/G.  Colorado (6th best record, 5th in points) ranks 11th in FP/G.  Carolina (5th best record, 6th in points) ranks 9th in FP/G.  It's not just about having the best players, it's about having the most good players. 

I will approve the deal.  You still have an uphill battle to get this through as you need all 3 other TC members to approve. 

[snugerud]

I accept most of your logic here, aside from your point about Cally being hypocritical. 

I never said hypocritical ,  it was ironic.  Just that my personal feelings some of the teams gave up what I felt was way too much ,  and in this case he is feeling I am giving up too little.  I just think its indicative of different values opinions on players/picks/contracts etc.  It wasn't at all as a slight towards him, just pointing out a difference of values.

I really don't like to give out my strategies and kind of hate myself right now for giving it out on here, but as you pointed out yes, my team has always been built on depth, very few star players and the ones I have always earn their keep.

i am not trying to argue the trade to be approved at this point but just point out where I think the trade committee has IMHO failed to see the value for future trades.  I see this as a dead deal.   

[Rob]

I never said hypocritical ,  it was ironic.  Just that my personal feelings some of the teams gave up what I felt was way too much ,  and in this case he is feeling I am giving up too little.  I just think its indicative of different values opinions on players/picks/contracts etc.  It wasn't at all as a slight towards him, just pointing out a difference of values.

Sorry if I put words in your mouth.  Like I said I think his deals give merit to his argument, that's all.